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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock
I have noticed that the Reformed (for instance) can retreat from a daylight examination of their misinterpreted Pauline beliefs back into the OT, including Isaiah and Psalms, rendering the Gospels irrelevant for the support of Reformed theology.

Irrelevant? Hardly. We simply don't have the same issue that you do...the erection of a wall between the Old and New Testaments whereby the two are effectively mutually exclusive of each other and the OT is merely a collection of cautionary tales for present-day Gentile Christians.

The New Covenant is not simply a replacement of the Old Covenant...it is the expansion and revelation of it to its fullest. God doesn't deal with man in a different way now...He deals with man in a more direct way.

The Reformed don't retreat to the Old Testament...we rightly understand the Gospel in light of the entire Word of God.

281 posted on 02/16/2009 4:41:18 PM PST by Frumanchu (God's justice does not demand second chances)
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To: Frumanchu; kosta50

***I have noticed that the Reformed (for instance) can retreat from a daylight examination of their misinterpreted Pauline beliefs back into the OT, including Isaiah and Psalms, rendering the Gospels irrelevant for the support of Reformed theology.

Irrelevant? Hardly. We simply don’t have the same issue that you do...the erection of a wall between the Old and New Testaments whereby the two are effectively mutually exclusive of each other and the OT is merely a collection of cautionary tales for present-day Gentile Christians.

The New Covenant is not simply a replacement of the Old Covenant...***

Firstly, let me say that the Gospel proofs of Calvinism are like dogs that speak - very rare. :) I notice that you do not speak of the Gospels; though, you, like many Reformed under examination, speak only of the NT.

Let us examine what Jesus said about the matter.

Luke 22:
14
When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles.
15
He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover 5 with you before I suffer,
16
for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
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Then he took a cup, 6 gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves;
18
for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
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7 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”
20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

The new covenant. What is the new covenant? Matt 5:
38
25 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
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But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.
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If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well.
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Should anyone press you into service for one mile, 26 go with him for two miles.
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Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.
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27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
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But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
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that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
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For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors 28 do the same?
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And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? 29
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So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

None of this is found in the OT. The OT is more concerned with retribution and less concerned with mercy. Let us see what Paul has to say, since the Reformed are more Paulian than Christian.

Hebrews speaks to this. Heb 7:
11
8 If, then, perfection came through the levitical priesthood, on the basis of which the people received the law, what need would there still have been for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not reckoned according to the order of Aaron?
12
When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well.

18
On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness,
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for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope 13 is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb 8:
2
a minister of the sanctuary 2 and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up.
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Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer.
4
If then he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are those who offer gifts according to the law.
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They worship in a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary, as Moses was warned when he was about to erect the tabernacle. For he says, “See that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
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Now he has obtained so much more excellent a ministry as he is mediator of a better covenant, enacted on better promises.
7
3 For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one.
8
But he finds fault with them and says: 4 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
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It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they did not stand by my covenant and I ignored them, says the Lord.
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But this is the covenant I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds and I will write them upon their hearts. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
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And they shall not teach, each one his fellow citizen and kinsman, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know me, from least to greatest.
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For I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more.”
13
5 When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.

And so on. The Old Covenant is obsolete and the New has replaced it, according to Saint Paul. How does Reformed theology handle this?

***The Reformed don’t retreat to the Old Testament...we rightly understand the Gospel in light of the entire Word of God.***

And that is exactly how different Reformed theology is from early and traditional Christianity. Christianity from early times has understood that Christ is the Word of God; the Bible is the word - that is, man’s understanding of the Word - selected by the Church in accordance to its adherence to the Creeds. You cannot guarantee an authentic theology by working backwards - as evidenced by the millions of different individual beliefs and theologies and more being developed every year.

Jesus created the Church for men; man created the Bible in order to create a united witness to Jesus. One cannot go backwards as the Protestants attempt to. The children of the Reformation have attempted to create a Jesus out of the Bible; whereas Christianity created the Bible from its witness of Jesus.

For the record, Christianity reads the NT through the prism of the Gospels and the OT through the prism of the New. Not vice versa.


282 posted on 02/21/2009 4:14:54 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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