Posted on 01/12/2009 1:44:39 PM PST by TaraP
Are the Man of Sin and the Son of Perdition 2 totally different people?
MEANING OF PERDITION:Entire loss; utter destruction; ruin; esp., the utter loss of the soul, or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
If the Man of SIN was Nero-666 then we have the Son of Perdition to be revealed....I know many have said is Obama that person, but really could he be?
Paul wrote similar words to the Thessalonians, ‘The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders’ (2 Thes 2:9).
John in the book of Revelation records his vision of a beast coming out of the earth. In similar words he says, ‘And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived those who dwell on the earth’ (Rev 13: 13,14).
"For The Son Of Man Will Come Like The Lightning, Which Flashes Across The Whole Sky From The East To The West." For Discussion:
I just added up the length of time from each book :) where book five starts out with Titus coming to Jerusalem.
“I would not discount what he says based on that small misstatement.”
It wasn’t just that but there were others. I’ve never seen the point of associating Nero with the Anti-christ. Maybe he was a type but there were alot of types throughout the ages (Hitler being one). But there were no signs in the heavens back then, no earth shaking (about 130 years prior yes), the only thing listed was a comet and Josephus called it what it was just a comet. But that didn’t even show up until later that year.
JB
That is the "traditional" date, based largely on Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History and his quote from the works of Irenaeus.
There is a body of scholarship that places the writing of Revelation in the AD65-66 range. See Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry.
Also the oldest manuscripts all used just three letters in giving the number. This does two things, not only are we told the amount (666) but also how to add up the name.
Actually, both the 666 and 616 are derived from three Greek letters. As Gentry reports, “When Greek letters are used as numerals the difference between 666 and 616 is merely a change from χ to ι (666 = ξχς and 616 = ξις).” (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 197)
Otherwise, I'm not sure what your point would be.
Any reference to the number 616 was simple a mistake in the manuscripts.
That's one theory.
And lastly John wrote Revelations in Greek, there is no need to convert the names to Hebrew.
Gentry addressed that subject in the quote I posted in #34.
“Actually I think it was an Eddy Irving invention (of the Irvingits) that Darby jumped on.”
My understanding is that Margaret MacDonald was a follower of Edward Irving. She had the vision - Darby met with her after learning of her vision. It was out of this that “pre-Trib” was born. Darby and Irving both promoted it.
My great grandfather in England was contemporary with Darby (Darby was 20 years senior) and one of his followers. I grew up under this teaching. Later God made it clear to me that this was incorrect dispensational teaching and that dispensational teaching is itself incorrect. Do I have to convince others? No. God will do that. I do think that LeHay and Jenkins do a great disservice to Christians with their “Left Behind” teachings. Christians expecting to be “raptured” may not be prepared for whatever is coming, sort of in like lacking oil for their lamps.
Errors of fact?
I’ve never seen the point of associating Nero with the Anti-christ.
If the point of Revelation, as many believe, is to give comfort to first generation Christians undergoing persecution at the hands of Romans and apostate Jews, then the identification makes perfect sense. The time texts give us some hint of that, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place.” (v.1) “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.(v. 3)
But there were no signs in the heavens back then, no earth shaking (about 130 years prior yes), the only thing listed was a comet and Josephus called it what it was just a comet. But that didn’t even show up until later that year.
The “sun, moon, and stars” image is a reference back to Isaiah 13:10, the temporal punishment of ancient Babylon. I believe there is much in Josephus to confirm the images in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation. Remember, these are images and symbols, spiritual pictures of reality.
For example, regarding the Roman catapult stones, Josephus wrote:
"...Now, the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and farther. ...As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them [the Jewish rebels] notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried aloud in their own country language, "THE SON COMETH:" so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground: by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, [an effective action by the Romans] who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow." (Book 5 Chapter 6)People have puzzled over the phrase “the son cometh”. See Rev. 16:21.
Yes and no. Yes, God is finished with Israel as a nation distinct from all the nations of the earth. No, God is not finished with Israel the people who are scattered throughout all the nations of the world and have been coming to faith in Jesus Christ for 2000 years.
“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.” (Rom. 9:6-8)
“Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.'” (Rom. 9:27)
When a physical descendant of Abraham comes to Christ, they are regrafted into the root and counted again among the spiritual children of Abraham (Gal. 3:28,29). The salvation of every Jew is evidence that God is not finished with Israel.
No.
OThuga is merely the stalking horse, the forerunner . . .
OThuga has too many black marks against him and his past.
The AC will be lily white seemingly and convince the Jews he is their Messiah. No way OThuga is likely to do that, imho.
However, OThuga helps the PTB refine their propaganda machine; their control apparatus; their censoring and punishing schemes . . .
Good points, imho.
INDEED.
COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THOSE WORDS . . .
Obviously, the NAYSAYERS think THEY are almighty enough to need no such comfort! LOL.
/s
I see the ignorance-gone-to-seed perspective is still being broadcast about liberally.
God have mercy.
ROTFLOL.
SCRIPTURE
TALKS ABOUT BOTH.
Lots of folks seem unable or unwilling
to wrap their minds around a contingency with BOTH occurring in God’s timing and in God’s ways.
Alinsky’s book was dedicated to the AntiChrist?
I didn’t know that.
Now, now.
Try and avoid attempting to disturb the fossilized granitized craniums with
facts; historical facts or Biblical facts.
They are averse to them. They can’t conceive of them.
They can’t wrap their brittle brazen brains well around them.
. . . .
/sar
It’s much better when folks calling themselves Christians post truth and facts instead of falsehoods.
The pre Darby stuff has been proven repeatedly.
He did dedicate his book to Lucifer now didn’t he. And who is it that long ago decided he would be ‘God’. And what did he tempt Christ with if Christ would bend His knee to him? Didn’t Christ tell us He had foretold us all things? You surely do not think He, Christ would not think that it would be important to know who would be pretending to be Him in that day?
Technically true. Darby borrowed the idea from Edward Irving. The Irving/Darby invention was independent of the speculation in Morgan Edwards' student thesis.
He had to pay the challenge when someone showed him the writtings of Rev. Morgan Edwards (1742).
I'm not sure how the gentleman in question phrased his challenge, but I would not have paid based on the Edwards' statement.
Morgan Edwards wrote those comments as an exercise given to him by his professor when he was about 20 years old. The exercise involved trying to apply a “literal” interpretation to the Bible. There is no evidence of any widespread distribution of these thoughts (I would not call them “teachings” since there is no evidence he ever taught them to anyone). He finally published this material 44 years later. There is no evidence that anyone ever interacted with the material in any way.
In commenting on Edwards' statement, Tommy Ice in The Shout Heard Around the World Overview of the Rapture makes a number of unwarranted observations:
“Morgan Edwards, an important early American Baptist scholar, clearly taught some form of pre-tribulationism.”There is no evidence that Edwards taught these ideas, or that his professors encouraged him at all in this “literal” method.“It is clear from the above comment that Edwards was taught literal interpretation by his teachers, but they did not apply it consistently throughout the whole Bible.”
Edwards titled his book “Two Academical Exercises” perhaps indicating it was not something for general, serious consumption.
In analyzing Edwards' work, Tim Warner reminds us:
Pre-tribbers may be disappointed to discover that while Morgan Edwards' conclusions regarding the Millennium were based on literal interpretation, he gave no (literal) biblical reason for separating the rapture from the second coming. His only justification for this separation was his belief that it provided a necessary interval for the judgment of believers.Edwards believed that the raptured saints would spend three and a half years at the judgment seat of Christ. That was the only reason(Morgan Edwards and the Pre-Trib Rapture)
Warner continues:
"Let me tell thee, gentle reader, that the tutor's advice was taken by the composer of the Millennium; and that it has undergone several alterations and corrections since the protograph was exhibited in the said desk. Let me tell thee further, that the other advice, or rather command of the tutor was attended to; and a discourse delivered in the same desk, on the New Heaven and New Earth. A copy of which follows under the title, Last Novelties. And if thou like it half as well as I do, thou wilt not begrudge the eleven-penny bit it cost thee."If appears he got those last ideas from applying the same “literal” method to interpreting the Bible.It seems Morgan's work was published partly for its novelty and entertainment value rather than its weight as a theological discourse! And, one is not disappointed with the second section, where Morgan speculated that the lake of fire is in the moon, and that all the other planets in our solar system are inhabited!
The 56-page book is full of such raw speculation.
We can comfort others by telling them that there will be tribulation, but Jesus will be there with them through it all. The blessed hope we have is His coming again afater we go through whatever it is we must endure. Jeez...That isn't rocket science. It's basic scripture.
Let me try a different verse. When Jesus said that the saints will escape the "things that shall come to pass" (Luke 21:36), what was He talking about? I read a list of things we shall escape in Matt. 24, Luke 21 and Rev. 6-19: war, famine, death, religious persecution, earthquakes, signs and wonders in heaven, hail fire and blood, seas and rivers turned to blood, falling stars, sun moon and stars darkened, demons loosed upon earth, scorching sun, darkness, demons working miracles, satanic deception... To me all of them can be summed up in one word: Tribulation. And Jesus promised us that we will escape it!.
Luke 21:26 does not have Jesus saying we will escape these things. He says that when we see these things begin to occur, that we are to look up for our redemption (His 2nd coming) draweth nigh. In other words, these are signs of His soon returning. He does not guarantee escape. He even goes so far as to warn people to pray that they may be found worthy to escape these things, but never does He promise we will escape. Matthew 24 specifically says we will go through the tribulation, and that we'll see the AntiChrist, and such, and when we do to FLEE! He doesn't say I'm taking you out of it.
God certainly does say He has not appointed us to wrath, but to see Salvation. "For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess. 5:9.
Many interpret this to mean that God will take us to heaven in the Rapture before His wrath comes upon the world. But this is not what Paul had in mind. The context reveals that God's "wrath" is the same as the "sudden destruction" (vs. 3) that falls upon the lost when "the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night" (vs. 2). "God has not appointed us to wrath" (vs. 9) simply means that His wrath will not fall on true Christians when Jesus Christ returns.
Prior to Christ's return, the 7 last plagues of God's wrath will fall upon the world (Rev. 16). These plagues are very similar to the 10 plagues that fell upon the Egyptians in the time of Moses. Where were God's people then? Were they gone from Egypt? No, but they were protected! No plague fell upon the Israelites (Ex. 8:22; 9:6; etc.).
Paul wrote that "the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Eph. 5:6. Thus the larger issue is not "pre-trib vs. post-trib," but whether we are among the OBEDIENT OR DISOBEDIENT. When God's wrath falls, the disobedient will experience it to the fullest, no matter whether they claim to be Christians or not. Profession is worthless (see Mat. 7:21-23). Those who think they will disappear in the Rapture before the tribulation, and yet who are now living in disobedience to God's word, will experience God's wrath (unless they repent). Jesus Christ said He will assign them their "portion with the hypocrites." Mat. 24:51.
The snippets of scripture used to support a rapture doctrine are used so out of context it's scary.
What is it about scripture that you find so funny?
So, now God has a contingency plan just in case what He’s claerly stated in His Word doesn’t pan out just right?
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