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To: guitarplayer1953; NYer
[Re: 1 Cor 11:27-29, to Nyer] Verse 29 use the word diakrinoon which means to discern to be reflective it does not mean as you have tried to twist into recognize that the bread and the wine is the body and blood of Christ ___________________________

I suppose one could argue what is receiving "unbefittingly" (άναξίος, verse 27) or by "not discerning" (μή διακρίνων, verse 29), but Paul seems to provide the answer a few verses prior (my emphasis):

Apparently, he is alluding to the manner in which the agape meal, not the communion, was devoured by some—selfishly and without consideration for others. In fact, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the body and blood of Christ (although it is often quoted as if it did!).

How does one get full on the communion bread (a morsel) and drunk on the communion wine (a sip) unless we are talking agape meal? Obviously St. Paul does not distinguish between the agape meal and the Eucharistic communion, which means that it wasn't instituted yet

Apostle Paul obviously does not teach that this is Christ's real presence because he says 

In other words it is a statement of faithfulness and not some soul-cleansing and life-bestowing sacrament of the Orthodox/Catholic Church.

In that sense, the verse following (v. 27) makes sense as regards anaxíos or unbefitting (more than "unworthily"); it is said vis-a-vis the faithfulness.

Verese 29 in oldest Greek manuals reads 

but the redacted 5th century Byzantine text (and throught it, Textus Receptus, the KJV, and, of course, the NIV)

the difference is in τοῦ κυρίου (of the lord), which was apparently added at some point by someone to change the character of the verse!.

It is noteworthy to mention that beside the oldest Greek manuscriputs, Latin Vugate does not say "of the Lord"

nor does the the Catholic NAB.

The whole meaning of the sentence is changed by this addition! Eating and drinking (remember, Paul is talking about the members of the church binging) not discerning (their!) body, they bring damnation on themselves (from overeating and overdrinking).

Of course, in this context, verse 30 makes it clear that he is tlaking to them and not some diivne anger and Goid's wrath, when he says 

So, not only is he not speaking about any communion as the Orthodox/Catholic Churches have it, but of agape meal, he is also talking about the disrespectful, selfish and excessive manner in which the meal was consumed (he asks "Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?" [verse 22]), resulting in some getting (literally!) drunk and (literally!) sick (from drinking or eating) and some (literally!) falling asleep.

Apostle Paul also makes it very clear that the observance of the agape meal is a statement of faithfulness in Christ's return and not a salvific sacrament. This example also shows a vert common phenomenon found in biblical manuscriptis—scribal changes that were penned in order to radically change the menaing of the verse, in other words—corruption.

353 posted on 12/27/2008 11:08:24 PM PST by kosta50
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To: kosta50
In verse 20 Paul is speaking about the Lords dinner which as you have stated is the love feast which the scriptures bear wittiness to, yet in verse 24 Paul transitions into the speaking of the taking of bread and wine in remembrance of the Lord.

Now then when we get to verse 27 Paul say that when we take the cup and bread in an unworthy way by not examining what we are doing and in that taking the cup and the bread with sin in our hearts then for that reason in verse 30. 1 Cor 11:30 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.

It was believe that confessed sin or bing at odds with a brother or here when they came together they were aruging and over eating and drink that sin made a person weak sick and in Ananias and Sapphira's case lying to the Holy Spirit cost them their lives. I do believe that the term asleep here means they have died due to sin sickness and weakness.

359 posted on 12/28/2008 12:10:12 AM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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