Replies

DU - As for the Jesus of the Bible, we believe in him too! We just have a more original less modern interpretation than those who have accepted the trinity as created in the fourth century. Really, that is what this fuss is all about, the Trinitarians have accepted far worse things into their midst, but one who does not accept their creed, well that has to be stopped!

GZ - Well winter, do you, as a professed Christian, recognize an insult when you see one?

Yes Godzilla, we do.

wintertime, please note how subtly at first godzilla questions your christainity.

GZ - But DU likes to mask his words to make you think he is talking the same Jesus as you, even to the point of linking Jesus to the Bible.

Actually, I use plain english words, and I actually know what they mean when I use them.

(From the last emporer)
Pu Yi, at 15: /mr. Johnston, are words important?
Reginald Fleming 'R.J.' Johnston: Words are important.
Pu Yi, at 15: Why are words important?
Reginald Fleming 'R.J.' Johnston: If you cannot say what you mean, your majesty, you will never mean what you say and a gentleman should always mean what he says.

Many on this forum on both sides do not mean what they say for they do not understand the words used to say what they mean. (and yes, I mean that ;-)

GZ - This is contrary to the recent former prophet's words -
President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.

Actually, this "quote" cuts out a very important piece, some here would even call that lying, This is the full quote and link to the source: http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/31188/Crown-of-gospel-is-upon-our-heads.html

In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.

"Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life."

When ever you cut a sentance in two, or eliminate a link, or eliminate anything right after your quote that may change the effect of the quote, you are taking that quote out of context.

GZ - Have you studied your bible well enough to know a wolf in sheeps clothing?

Yes, we see you for what you are.

(it's a silly thing to ask and can be taken both ways, so I illustrated).

GZ - Do you know what Smith said that day he left the grove?

Neither do you, for this was written years later, but we've had this conversation before, so you knew that.

GZ - 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith — History, 1:19

Here is the link JSH 1:19 or you could actaully read the whole story by reading the whole chapter, it's not long. Or even just the First vision.

GZ - Is the Jesus you worship the spirit brother of satan?

You know (having had this conversation with me many times) that I have this on my web page here.

GZ - Is the Jesus you worship God the Son, second Person of the Trinity.

This too is answered on may page under The Oneness of God

GZ - You haven't seen DU's rants against the Trinity yet have you?

I have made no secret that I believe one of the biggest diffrences between Traditional christainity is the trinity. I don't believe that I have ever ranted (although I may have anyway)

Have a nice day wintertime.

Actually, I use plain english words, and I actually know what they mean when I use them.
(From the last emporer)

Right

Many on this forum on both sides do not mean what they say for they do not understand the words used to say what they mean. (and yes, I mean that ;-)

I understand fully the words I use and the context therein.

Actually, this "quote" cuts out a very important piece, some here would even call that lying, This is the full quote and link to the source:

Winter – this goes back to a recent thread where DU’s allegations against another freeper caused the thread to get pulled because he said the following quote was non-existent. Du, how does it feel to use a quote found by Sandra Tanner?

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/31188/Crown-of-gospel-is-upon-our-heads.html In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.
"Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life."

Thank you Du for proving my point on context. The first paragraph’s subject and context is very clear – Hinckley is speaking that the mormon Christ is different from the Christ of Christianity (DUh). The second paragraph marks a subject change – he is defining what mormons believe the definition of Christian is. The question here, Winter, is which Christ is correct. The mormon version – Jesus, a created being who is spiritually the brother of satan, that worked his way to godhood by following specific laws and ordinances. Or is it the Jesus of Christianity – eternal God, Second Person of the Trinity? See, words mean things, and that goes for the definition of Christ and Christianity. Just like a knock-off rolex watch, mormonism tries to claim to be Christian by using the label. Jesus said that many on the judgment day would cry “lord, lord”, but He would reply “I never knew you”.

Secondly winter, note how Hinckley phrases his belief statement – ‘believe’ (so do the demons), pray through (not to), follow/live – mormon gospel of works to attain god’s pleasure. Christians would remark that they are saved by the blood of Jesus and His grace. See, knowing my doctrine prevents me from being ensnared by false teachings.

When ever you cut a sentance in two, or eliminate a link, or eliminate anything right after your quote that may change the effect of the quote, you are taking that quote out of context.

You’ll have to remember that the next time you do a hatchet job on a CE Online article or a biblical passage :)

GZ - Have you studied your bible well enough to know a wolf in sheeps clothing?
Yes, we see you for what you are.

Actually, I was referring to the smith citation that is coming up. But then my old pastor used to tell me that when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one hit.

GZ - Do you know what Smith said that day he left the grove?
Neither do you, for this was written years later, but we've had this conversation before, so you knew that.

DU, I cited mormon doctrine – this is the official approved story written by a scribe? Does that change the fact that he referred to all of Christianity as an abomination? Were I to cite another source, you’d claim I was falsifying something or is there a more accurate source for the statement other than JSH hmmmm?

Here is the link JSH 1:19 or you could actaully read the whole story by reading the whole chapter, it's not long. Or even just the First vision.

Winter, actually there are ten of these first vision accounts available to review here as well as at this mormon site here too. There are even more if one adds in the accounts from the mormon prophets and apostles after smith’s death. Much like the theology of mormonism, the accounting of the first vision has morphed with time. Your profile indicates you have kids, so do I. one of the things I learned early on is if a story changes and contradicts itself over time, the story teller is lying. Look at those accounts linked above and think about it.

GZ - Is the Jesus you worship the spirit brother of satan?
You know (having had this conversation with me many times) that I have this on my web page here.

Du’s link is not to a true webpage, but his FR profile page he uses to proselytize. In short, the angels cited by these verses are not ontologically God or human, but a separate creation. Should you desire, I can pick apart these so-called proof verses DU uses because it goes back to the fundamental definition of WHO Jesus is. Read Colossians 1:15 and 16 to see the broader scriptural context these verses apply to. Mormonism in reality founds this teaching of Jesus and Satan being brothers in the extrabiblical writings smith put together. A well documented article contrasting mormon teaching with Biblical teaching can be found here. But to a degree, DU is being honest in that he believes that the Christ that you and I worship and call Savior winter, is something all together different in mormonism.

GZ - Is the Jesus you worship God the Son, second Person of the Trinity.
This too is answered on may page under The Oneness of God

Remarkably, DU comes around to the key subject of the thread – please go and read the leading article of this thread. Some of DU’s arguments are based in part on Sabellianism, which DU claims to understand, but fails in the application thereof. Further Winter, what DU is also arguing for here is a fundamental of polytheism – that there are multiple gods. Now he tries to mask that by titling it The Oneness of God but it should more properly be labeled The Multiplicity of gods. He attempts this by a muddled attack on the doctrine of the Trinity by focusing only upon one facet of the doctrine – that each Person of the Trinity share One Divine essence or nature. Again, winter, if you want I can pick apart the flawed application of the scriptures DU uses and place them within the context of the fullness of the scriptural support for the trinity. Winter – the question you must answer is whether you believe in a single God manifesting in 3 Persons, or crass polytheism put forth by smith.

GZ - You haven't seen DU's rants against the Trinity yet have you?
I have made no secret that I believe one of the biggest diffrences between Traditional christainity is the trinity. I don't believe that I have ever ranted (although I may have anyway)

DU, you are grossly understating yourself here.

Well winter, if I didn’t know my Christian doctrine and studied it in the detail that you have admonished us here, I would not be able to compare and contrast these doctrinal issues. For to address the biblically false teachings of mormonism, one must understand what the true teachings are. Treasury department officials learning to identify counterfeit money will spend nearly all their time examining the real currency. Counterfeit money is readily apparent afterwards.

So here is the basic mormon attitude towards you as a Christian winter -
1. You belong to an apostate belief condemned by God (the only thing worse would be to be a member of one of the many non-LDS mormon groups)
2. He has told you that you worship the wrong Jesus. Jesus was a created being, not eternally God.
3. He has told you that Christians should worship a polytheistic array of gods and that any concept of a ‘trinity’ is wrong as Christians believe.

Wnitertime, are those compatible with your Christianity?