And what was different in Nazi occupied Poland? Or pre-WW2 Spain? Or 19th century Mexico? Or 18th century France? Or Vietnam/Cambodia in the 1970's? Or the Middle East today? Yet, the Catholic Church remained without becoming a state-run church in ANY of these cases. I think we have ample evidence of such persecutions throughout Catholic history, and continue to see it even today, such as in China. They have installed their own bishops and tried to raise a parallel church, but Rome isn't budging on that. At any rate, the Orthodox were not adverse to political machinations, given their Byzantium backgrounds. It is historically well known and cannot be denied. We both know that the Patriarch of Constantinople was excommunicated some 18 times during before the Schism, and I do not think they were all for religious reasons!!! Political machinations. Same with those returning from Florence. Quite frankly, the Eastern bishops knew they would have been replaced by other bishops willing to continue hating the West, so they caved in very quickly. Take Isidore of Kiev, for example. What happened to him when he went to Moscow? He was banished by political princes...He was one of the few who actually tried to carry out what happened at Florence.
As you point out, the East had a long memory of the sack of Constantinople. As to "only" 230 years ago, that would be like the United States STILL continuing to hate Great Britian... Greeks have a long memory.
Clown-"Masses" and other liturgical abominations are not the result of polticial repression. Unlike the Church in communist hell, the American Catholics did it all on their own, with a small courageous orthodox minority holding fast to their Patristic tradition, God bless them, while the rest went right along all on their own.
We could very well say the same thing about Arianism and any other wave of heresy that has swept the Church. Fortunately, this sort of abuse can be corrected without a major Council. Perhaps the Pope can spank some bishops? Trust me, we do not like it, either.
If you are familiar with the glacial speed by which the Church moves, you may be more understanding of why such things have happened, given the turmoil in society during the Second Vatican Council... Also, you speak of the American Church. Be advised they represent 9% of the world population of Catholics and DO NOT represent the normal Catholic out there.
The best thing for the American Church would be to get rid of the USCCB, since they have absolutely no power and are often the center of subliminal disobedience to Rome. As your spiritual reading may have alerted you, living in a comfortable and rich society is not conducive to leading a Christian way of life. It is very difficult to evangelize in this society, and I think, at least here, the Catholic Church has done something similar to what happened in Russia with the Orthodox - some compromises were done that many now regret... Thoughts?
Regards
How many a Catholic churches were destroyed in Nazi-occupied Poland?
Yet, the Catholic Church remained without becoming a state-run church in ANY of these cases
Oh yeah? The Catholic clergy willingly participated and were incorporated in the famous and well documented Ustasha, Croatian fascist, concentration camp murders.
Besides, don't tell me that there were no communists operatives in the Churches in Cambodia or in China to this day!
And how do you know to what extent they became "state-run?"
Same thing in Russia. Those who could get out rejoined the Church Outside of Russian (ROCOR). They did what they could. There were always spoiled apples. Some were realists and cooperated for the benefit of the few faithful who dared go to churches.
But there was no parallel pogrom again the Catholic Church to compare or equate to what happened in Russia, and the tens of thousands of priests killed or imprisoned.
At any rate, the Orthodox were not adverse to political machinations, given their Byzantium backgrounds.
Neither was the Latin Church. It played a prominent role in many political events in Western Europe.
It is historically well known and cannot be denied
Ditto. So what are you trying to say, jo?
We both know that the Patriarch of Constantinople was excommunicated some 18 times during before the Schism, and I do not think they were all for religious reasons!!!
Unlike your side, we don't make our Patriarchs into living saints. There is no personality cult with any of our Patriarch.
Same with those returning from Florence
They sold out. They came home not with reunion but with reabsorption. The garbage was promptly thrown out.
If If I remember, he showed excessive affinity for the Vatican when he arrived there. Of course he was banished. Anyone who sold out Orthodoxy was banished for committing religious treason.
As you point out, the East had a long memory of the sack of Constantinople. As to "only" 230 years ago, that would be like the United States STILL continuing to hate Great Britian... Greeks have a long memory
Broken trust in any marriage is difficult to repair even if the two parties reconcile.
Perhaps the Pope can spank some bishops? Trust me, we do not like it, either
I don't see people waiting in line to petition their bishops to return to the Traditional Mass. The fact is most Catholics are happy with the NO mass; they can go out with their friends on a Friday night and have chicken wings! And they don't have to fast since midnight before receiving communion! And they can get all the communion they want without confession! It's easy! Just like being a Protestant. There is no turning back.
Normal Catholic? What is that? In Germany 6% of the Catholics attend Mass every Sunday. Is that normal?
The best thing for the American Church would be to get rid of the USCCB
And how do you propose that? And who will support it? After this Pope, the new pope will change things again. Last pope allowed the crucifix to disappear from the altar; this one brought it back. The next one, who knows...there is no more tradition in the Latin Church.
It is very difficult to evangelize in this society, and I think, at least here, the Catholic Church has done something similar to what happened in Russia with the Orthodox - some compromises were done that many now regret... Thoughts?
I grieve for the Catholic Church. Unlike the Church in Russia, which was raped, the Church in the West committed suicide in 1964.