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To: Frumanchu
OK--since I'm actually at work, I'll have to take these piecemeal. Don't be offended if I miss one or two. Some may follow in later posts.

Can you present us with the specific Scripture(s) which teach that the grace required to nullify the effects of original sin is applied to every individual without exception?

Titus 2:11-16

In what way, and more importantly to what extent? To the extent that He will not clearly show Himself to some men in a manner that was perfectly fit for others such as Paul (Acts 9:3-5)? To the extent that He will ostensibly allow men to prevent those who otherwise would believe from doing so, effectively blockading the gates to the Kingdom (Matt 23:13)?

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to ask here. Can you clarify?

Why then does He willfully withhold from some the means He knows would lead to their repentance (Luke 8:10,10:13,10:21)?

He does what is sufficient for that person. He doesn't get in your face and DEMANDS acknowledgment from everyone. He wants faith from us. He wants trust.

The error here is in assuming that man does not bear responsibility for his sinfulness. That is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from the insistence that all man be provided the opportunity of salvation.

I don't follow this logic at all.

Every man bears total responsibility for his sin. That is why every man must be granted the opportunity to turn from it. The way I understand calvinism is that if God intended to create some men merely to destroy them, then they have no responsibility at all. They are, in fact, conforming totally to God's will and have no sin. They are merely puppets in His creation.

107 posted on 08/26/2008 8:47:45 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce
Titus 2:11-16

I disagree that this teaches that prevenient grace (that required to free the will from slavery to sin) is applied to all men individually and without exception. No doubt you knew this one was coming. The Greek pas very rarely means 'all' individually. There are plenty of examples of this principle which I'm sure you've been presented with (I can provide them if you wish). Moreover, the context lends itself to the "all types" understanding as it gives instructions for older men, older women, younger men, younger women, and servants. The point is that the grace of salvation extends to men and women of every age ans station of life, and thus all are to respond in like manner.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to ask here. Can you clarify?

Sure! You said that God chose to "limit himself with regards to our will." I asked in what way He limits Himself and more importantly to what extent He does so. I then cited examples from Scripture of Him clearly and directly revealing Himself to some men (like Paul) while obviously not doing so to others, and ostensibly allowing men to prevent those who would otherwise have entered His Kingdom from doing so (apparently without either the will or the ability to stop them). I'm trying to understand to what extent you believe God has limited Himself when it comes to the will of man, because it would seem to leave Him with very little resembling sovereignty.

He does what is sufficient for that person. He doesn't get in your face and DEMANDS acknowledgment from everyone. He wants faith from us. He wants trust.

He sure got in Paul's face. He sure doesn't ask nicely for everyone's repentance (Acts 17:30). And in the case of the men of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom, He sure doesn't do what He knows would be sufficient to bring about their repentance.

I don't follow this logic at all.

Every man bears total responsibility for his sin. That is why every man must be granted the opportunity to turn from it.

Now THAT is logic that I don't follow. On what basis do you claim that every man MUST be granted the opportunity to turn from it? If all men bear total responsibility for their sins, and God would be wholly justified in condemning them for their sins, then how on earth can you claim that He MUST grant them the opportunity to turn from it? If God MUST give them the opportunity of salvation, then salvation is not of grace but itself of justice, and that in turn puts God's justice at odds with itself. Moreover, if all men MUST be provided the opportunity to repent and be saved, then there was nothing gracious or voluntary about the Cross...Jesus was compelled by justice to go to the Cross since it was the only way salvation could be provided in a material sense.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see any grounds...certainly not in Scripture...for the claim that God MUST provide the opportunity of repentance and salvation to the objects of His just wrath.

The way I understand calvinism is that if God intended to create some men merely to destroy them, then they have no responsibility at all. They are, in fact, conforming totally to God's will and have no sin. They are merely puppets in His creation.

Ahh, ok. This is helpful because it gives me the opportunity to correct a misunderstanding.

Conformity to God's will and responsibility on the part of man are not contradictory concepts. Two simple examples are Joseph's brothers and the authors of Scripture. Joseph's brothers were quite clearly held responsible for their actions, yet it was also quite clearly according to God's will that they committed them. Likewise, we know that God did not dictate the Scriptures to the authors (except obviously where clearly stated), but rather that they are truly the words of the authors themselves, reflecting their styles and abilities. Yet we also know that God efficaciously ensured through divine inspiration that their words were perfectly and wholly true, to the extent that they are regarded as the very Word of God. Another example would be God and Pharaoh, but I'll expound upon that point in a moment.

Another thing you must understand about the Reformed position is that God's election occurs within the context of the fall and man's sinfulness. God's decree to elect someone is a gracious decree to show unmerited favor upon them by freeing them from bondage to sin and quickening them to faith in Him that He might redeem them wholly unto Himself. There is no particular characteristic or action which leads God to do this for any...it is purely His good will and pleasure to do so. Likewise, His decree of reprobation upon another is a just decree to show merited wrath upon them by passing over them and leaving them to their sinfulness. He may in turn harden them to the extent that He withholds His restraining work from them to varying degrees. It is in precisely this way that He hardened Pharaoh's heart, which He clearly states as His action according to His purpose (Ex 4:22), yet it is also made clear that Pharaoh hardened his heart.

If need be I can explain further the Reformed view on this, but it bear repeating that conformity to God's will and responsibility on the part of man are complementary, not contradictory.

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

108 posted on 08/26/2008 10:41:57 AM PDT by Frumanchu (God's justice does not demand second chances)
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