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To: Truth Defender; annalex
A friend of mine and I were talking about this just last night (he works at an ELCA facility, and were having an ordination there last night).

The practice of designating a man to be the head priest/pastor via a form of ordination ritual goes back to at least the first/ early second century. There were many purposes to this, but a big one was to keep control over who was preaching what. Which might seem odd to most Protestants, but if you look at some of the early heresies (Gnostics for example), who were presenting themselves as true heirs of St. Peter or Paul, there needed be some way to control. The lists of Apostolic Succession developed in a similar way, so a lay person or authority could look at who studied with who and taught who to determine which guy was the “real deal.”

Funny thing is, St Augustine himself did not view the AS as supreme. Someone asked “What do you do if you find a priest/bishop (the term was often intertwined back then) who is not on the list?” You check his doctrine and if it was true, you take his word for it that he was ordained. This was because there were places where the barbarians had overrun or were to separated from the main body to have the lists preserved.

AS developed into a more important doctrine as the West and East began to fall. With many charlatans and frauds running around, the need developed to have a firmer basis for who did what. So by the early Middle Ages, the requirements for valid orders in the West was much stricter than in the earlier times.

784 posted on 08/04/2008 5:12:46 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum
The practice of designating a man to be the head priest/pastor via a form of ordination ritual goes back to at least the first/ early second century. There were many purposes to this, but a big one was to keep control over who was preaching what. Which might seem odd to most Protestants, but if you look at some of the early heresies (Gnostics for example), who were presenting themselves as true heirs of St. Peter or Paul, there needed be some way to control. The lists of Apostolic Succession developed in a similar way, so a lay person or authority could look at who studied with who and taught who to determine which guy was the “real deal.”

I agree with you almost to the letter! The first example that was written, I believe, was about the year 160 or so AD. Then it was not a standard among all churches until about the late 2nd century or the early 3rd century that servants or "pastors" were called "priests." I recall reading one of the early writings (can't remember which one) where a ritual started of "ordination." Anyway, you are right on the mark as far as I am concerned, except for the dates, which I may be a little off on myself. But, it's for sure not in the 1st Century nor start of the 2nd.

Funny thing is, St Augustine himself did not view the AS as supreme. Someone asked “What do you do if you find a priest/bishop (the term was often intertwined back then) who is not on the list?” You check his doctrine and if it was true, you take his word for it that he was ordained. This was because there were places where the barbarians had overrun or were to separated from the main body to have the lists preserved.

Again, I agree with your remarks! It was during Augustine's reign as Bishop of Hippo that he wouldn't accept back into the leadership of the church those bishops who, to save their lives, backpeddeled on their faith in Christ as Lord, and to whom those bishops under the influence of the Bishop of Rome sought to have him recapture their position in the churches. This was when Augustine sent a letter to the bishops of the Eastern churches refusing to acknowledge the authority of the bishop of Rome with the threat that he and the other bishops of Africa would not recognize them. I have yet to be able to find that particular letter to quote; I read it once, but can't remember the source, although I had noted the remarks Augustine made in it. Maybe you can find it.

AS developed into a more important doctrine as the West and East began to fall. With many charlatans and frauds running around, the need developed to have a firmer basis for who did what. So by the early Middle Ages, the requirements for valid orders in the West was much stricter than in the earlier times.

Again I agree (amazing, isn't it!). Yes, Bishop Damasus was the first bishop of Rome to use Matthew 16:18 to enhance his rule of the church as a successor of Peter the Apostle, the "Vicar of Peter". That was in the 4th century, 366-384 AD. One can read all about him in the Catholic Encycopedia list of Popes. Apostolic Succession was gaining ground during his time, and increased in importance since then, really culminating in the middle ages.

Thank you for a very good post.

785 posted on 08/04/2008 7:37:55 PM PDT by Truth Defender (History teaches, if we but listen to it; but no one really listens!)
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To: redgolum; Truth Defender

Good post. Indeed, the records of ordination are not in themselves dispositive as they could be lost. However, that does not invalidate the fact that the principle of apostolic succession was held firmly in the Church.


800 posted on 08/05/2008 8:13:58 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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