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To: wagglebee; redgolum
The record of history says that I'm right.  During the reign of Queen Mary (which was before the reign of Queen Elizabeth), many of the Church of England, both clerics and laity, were burned at the stake for holding precisely these beliefs.

For example, an excerpt from the articles of indictment against Dr. Ridley, formerly bishop of London, and Mr. Latimer, formerly bishop of Worchester, who were both martyred in 1555.

In the name of God, Amen.  We, John of Lincoln, James of Glouchester, and John of Bristol, bishops
  1. We do object to thee, Nicholas Ridley, and to thee, John Latiumer, jointly and severallyt, first that thou, Nicholaus Ridley, in this high University of Oxford, in the year 1554, hast affirmed, and openly defended and maintained, and in many other times and places besides, that the true and natural body of Christ after the consecration of the priest, is not really present in the sacrement of the altar.
  2. That in the year aforesaid thou hast publicly affirmed and defended that in the sacrament of the altar remaineth still the substance of bread and wine.
  3. That in the said year thou hast openly affirmed, and obstinately maintained, that in the mass is no propitiatory sacrifice for the quick and the dead.

Dr. Ridley and Mr. Latimer did not dispute these charges.

Surely, you realize that essentially no one else in the West considers Holy Communion to involve a sacrifice?

669 posted on 08/02/2008 7:41:14 PM PDT by Celtman (It's never right to do wrong to do right.)
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To: Celtman; redgolum; Huber
First of all, NOWHERE does it indicate whether the condemned or their accusers are Catholic or Anglican.

Surely, you realize that essentially no one else in the West considers Holy Communion to involve a sacrifice?

Except a great many Anglicans and Lutherans

694 posted on 08/03/2008 10:01:31 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Celtman; redgolum; Huber

I researched this a little further and think it should be pointed out that there were a great many “sham” trials during the English Reformation.

Depending on whether the king or queen was Catholic or Anglican it was routine to condemn the leadership of the opposing Church. And it was the norm for the hierarchy of the opposition to make false claims to maintain their own position, freedom and life.

I will not dispute that the trials and executions of the Oxford martyrs were shams, but do you have actual proof (not the claims of accusers) that Bishops Latimer, Ridley or Cramner actually made these claims?


698 posted on 08/03/2008 11:12:29 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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