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To: wagglebee; sandyeggo
You are correct, the phrase you used was “hundreds of millions”:

Yes it is the phrase I used, and I don't think it is unlikely at all. Estimates range from 50m to 500m, as best as I know. I think something between 150m and 250m is likely. Where would you put the toll? What would you own up to?

And here you claimed that the papacy “owned” Europe from 500 AD until 1800

For the record, the link you provided was incorrect. You were probably pointing to: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2023605/posts?page=11088#11088

Yes, I said that, and meant it, too... my explanation thereof is in that lost post... There was no other entity in the otherwise fractured Roman states that had ubiquitous power throughout, with both international and interstate authority (and free passage) and internal authority to include boots-on-the-ground right down to the township and borough level. That kind of influence makes or breaks kings (and did), regardless of whatever may look to be going on.

315 posted on 08/01/2008 4:29:36 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1
Yes it is the phrase I used, and I don't think it is unlikely at all. Estimates range from 50m to 500m, as best as I know. I think something between 150m and 250m is likely. Where would you put the toll? What would you own up to?

I am trying to find an estimate for the cumulative population of Europe during this time period, I simply do not believe there were that many people. Additionally, you seem to want to blame the Church for every death in war.

There was no other entity in the otherwise fractured Roman states that had ubiquitous power throughout, with both international and interstate authority (and free passage) and internal authority to include boots-on-the-ground right down to the township and borough level. That kind of influence makes or breaks kings (and did), regardless of whatever may look to be going on.

This is patently FALSE. The 14th Century popes were prisoners of the kings of France, after that the papacy NEVER held any power except within parts of Italy.

318 posted on 08/01/2008 4:37:08 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: roamer_1
That kind of influence makes or breaks kings (and did), regardless of whatever may look to be going on.

Yes to a point, but look into the Great Western Schism and the struggle between the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope. The only real form of government that post Roman Empire Europe could agree on was ironically an Empire. Ironic because many of the states in the HRE came from the people that over ran the Western Empire!

Part of that system had the Pope as a major official. But whether he was supreme or not was really not settled. The French Church claimed many privileges that Rome could not infringe for centuries. Many a Pope was told to beat sand by the kings of France (which controlled the Papacy during the Western Schism), and many were pulled down.

That is not to say the Pope didn't have a lot of power. He could sanction war against you (which they did often) or even lead troops himself. He could lay a ban on sacraments which would put your people under very nerve wracking conditions. But even that was ineffective at times. The bishops in what is now northern Germany and Denmark usually just ignored it (the Interdicts happened so often, and communication was so bad, that to keep up was very frustrating and often impossible). Venice was also famous for ignoring the Pope and siding with Constantinople as often as not.

The Papacy was not as powerful as many suggest, nor as weak. Study the history, especially the times of the Western Schism (up to three Popes running around at once calling for Crusades against each other) and the Hundred Years war. You get the feeling that everyone just liked to whack their neighbor, and would use any excuse to do it.

323 posted on 08/01/2008 4:49:28 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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