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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; wmfights; Petronski; ...
Obviously, we know that works of love that we are judged by are impossible without faith, as much scripture indeed asserts as well.

But Muslims have zero Christian faith and you told me they can still go to Heaven because of their works. That is works-only.

FK: ... devout Muslims score a zero percent ...

We don't know that. We know they don't go to Church, -- an external sign. Christ judges the hearts. If their hearts seek the union with the Catholic Church which they don't know through no fault of their own, then salvation will be found for them in the Church.

I know they score zero percent because devout Muslims explicitly deny Christ. That means zero faith. You again appear to be arguing for works-only salvation. BTW, can someone who totally denies Christ still find union with your Church? I suppose that's up to your Magisterium. I know they couldn't find union with my church. :)

Man cannot "just do what is necessary" without the grace and salvific work of the Cross. Why do you put words in my mouth?

No, I meant as opposed to having faith. I know that you believe Christ dying is necessary, but you don't appear to think that faith is necessary.

FK: ... are we more like "co-adults" in comparative terms?

Depends who. Sanctification, theosis, means growing up in Christ to the point of adulthood, yes. We are meant to grow up.

As my set-up suggested, I mean "co-adults" with God, such that we respect God and He respects us as individuals. God still has the honor as the elder, but we are independent and God will honor our sovereignty. Do you agree to that?

I don't know why you are bringing sanctification in. Does God treat young Christians and mature Christians differently as far as His interference (and His respect for our free will) is concerned?

The evil of Calvinism is precisely in placing a barrier between man and God, whereas the Church is sent to erase the barrier.

LOL! That reminds me of Clinton the other day in Africa preaching that people should practice monogamy. :) There is no greater human barrier between men and God on earth than the Roman Catholic Church. Calvinism promotes a personal one-on-one relationship between the person and God, no middle-men other than the only Mediator, Christ. Catholicism prevents or severely restricts that one-on-one relationship by inserting all the men of the Church, the saints, Mary, etc. in between.

1,031 posted on 08/09/2008 10:08:56 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; wmfights; ...
The thing about the Muslim is that he knows very little even of what he is denying. It is, of course, sheer speculation what chances anyone outside fo the visible Catohlic Church has for salvation. You are correct that explicit and informed denial of the Church and of what she teaches means reprobation. The hope, however, is that (1) one denying the Church is misinformed, or (2) in his dying hour he converts because Christ in his mercy shows Himself to him.

The faith in divinity of Christ, that we share with all Christians, is a demanding thing. It is like being given ten talents instead of one talent. If this faith leads one to obey the Gospel and the Church, that's the works upon which he will be judged. If not, the ignorant Muslim who give his last shirt to a stranger might be with an advantage.

you don't appear to think that faith is necessary.

Faith is necessary for sanctification, but Christ has always been merciful to those of little faith. It is one of the theological virtues. Hope and Charity (Love) are the two others, and love is the greatest (1 Cor 13:13)

we are independent and God will honor our sovereignty. Do you agree to that?

We are not independent. We are totally dependent on His grace. What we have is not sovereignty, but free will.

Does God treat young Christians and mature Christians differently

Good question. Aquinas taught that yes, God leads His elect, but he does so knowing where their free will would have taken them. I don't however have a good reference handy; I'll think about it some more. On this score Aquinas may not be dogmatic because Molinas had a different theology and either one is admissible.

Calvinism promotes a personal one-on-one relationship between the person and God

First, the scripture does not teach that one-on-one part. Second, despite whatever rhetoric, with denial of free will comes denial of that very desire to imitate Christ by which we are saved and reach heaven. How many Protestants do you know who would read from St. Athanasius "God became man so that man can become God" and nod in happy agreement?

1,033 posted on 08/09/2008 10:32:31 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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