Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex
Ridiculous. It just doesn't follow.
Our Father Who art in heaven, Thy will be done
His ministry from the heavenly places (Ephesians; Hebrews, etc.) is not supposed to match His ministry to the lost sheep of the house of Israel conducted as the Son of Man on Earth. He is the same Lord, but He exercises different ministries.
The Church which is His Body, where there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek, NEITHER male nor female, NEITHER bond nor free, was not a subject of revelation during His earthly ministry, when He, as Israel's King, was still offering the Davidic Kingdom (Isaiah 22; etc.)to that particular Nation (which would be the ‘ekklesia’ {congregation; assembly} that He would build, and would have 12 Apostles judging 12 tribes (Matt. 19:28, NOT judging the Body of Christ - the Body of Christ is not composed of 12 or any number of tribes), at a time when He will be Personally reigning in ‘THE REGENERATION “(”THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS” - ACTS 3:19-26).
Further, there is not once instance in the Book of Acts where the Apostles baptized anyone in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. The Twelve that accompanied Christ during His earthly ministry to Israel did not have any intention to go to the nations until they saw the repentance of the Nation of Israel.
At such a time (yet future to us), when Israel does repent (and they will(!), as a Nation), 12,000 evangelists from each of the 12 tribes will go to the nations (Rev. chs. 7, 14), and they will baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Neither John, nor the 12 Apostles, nor the Seventy, Nor Paul, nor anyone in the New Testament ever sprinkled or put water on the heads of infants, calling it baptism.
Practicing?
Christ refers to "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."
I know you truncated the quote and thus your argument appeared more sound, but the fullness of Christ words states otherwise.
Furthermore, the Catholic Church does now teach us "to observe all things whatsoever" He commanded them.
Oh, excuse me. Let me correct that.
There is NO visible church church on earth today OBSERVING “all things whatsoever” Jesus Christ “commanded” during Hios earthly ministry . . . or practicing it either.
I would love to see a member of the Catholic church or ANY church in my town “observe” the instructions in Matthew chapter 10. Those items in the chapter are part of the “all things.” I’m waiting to see it.
The Catholic Church does so.
So, the Catholic Church observes Matthew ch. 10 and Luke chapters 9 and 10? Or, does it just teach to observe, but doesn’t observe? or what?
I’m 52 years old, I’ve never seen it observed by anyone in any church at any time, Catholic or otherwise, even if someone somewhere is teaching someone else tro observe it.
No Catholic church member on my block is either observing it or teaching anyone else to observe it.
Wow, are you ever tangled up!
For the third time, I will point you to Christ's words:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.This is what the Catholic Church does.
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
You yourself explained in the same post what is it that you believe, proving my presumption.
In our fallen state, our free will chooses not to accept God's grace
Not always. Mary accepted it; St. John the Baptist, the Apostles at various times, St. Stephen the First Martyr, and all the canonized saints, plus countless uncanonized ones, plus the Old Testament righteous starting with Abel.
There are exceptions but most people I regularly see at Mass are there because they freely accepted the sanctifying grace.
No I don't see. The scriptures describe God exactly like the Church knows Him.
that presumes that a man has something within himself that allows him to be able to love God. The Bible argues against that.
The Bible doesn't. All these prooftexts refer to the fallen man apart from the grace. But the grace is given us. It is by grace alone that we can turn to God and many do. You don't seem to disagree with that, and your question is, "when do all humans receive that grace?" The answer is, at all times since conception, of course, although ordinarily the outpouring of sanctifying grace occurs with the particupation in the sacraments of the Church. "Baptism ... now saveth you also" (1 Peter 3:21); "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life" (John 6:55).
I hope you realize that you are putting the free will of man above the power of God ... Man's will now trumps God's will
Not at all; we only have free will because God gave it to us: "God created man to his own image" (Gen 1:27).
Would you save your child from playing with matches against her will?
Because I can. God cannot "save" a reprobate by violating the reprobate's free will, because it is a logical impossibility: love cannot be forced. To save is to elicit freely given love. God cannot lie; He cannot fail; He cannot stop loving; he cannot force our love. These things are of essence of God, Who IS love (1 John 4:8)
An infant is incapable of accepting saving grace via free will and therefore loving God
Since an infant cannot exercise free will, he cannot reject the grace of baptism; it is the matter of the free will of the adult sponsor. "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not" (Mark 10:14).
What you posted is a meaningless collage of scripture fragments to suit your personal philosophy. It is true that Jesus began His ministry teaching the Jews; it is also true and very clear from the scripture that His ministry extended to the Gentiles and that the Church whose creation He foretold in Matthew 16 is the Church that ministers to the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The mission to forgive sins is a part of the grand commission to evangelize the world. The ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18) is therefore a part of the Church as Christ configured her.
The sacrifice of the Mass you misunderstand also, not that that is our topic. Of course Christ is not sacrificed anew at Mass, as the words of the Institution “This is my body ... this is the blood of a new and everlasting covenant shed for you so that sins may be forgiven”, repeated at every Mass make clear.
***God gave it to us: “God created man to his own image” (Gen 1:27).***
And if you keep reading things went down the tubes rather quickly.
AMEN, great scripture Dr. E.! Under the Latin view, John 10:26 would actually MEAN: "but you do not believe because you do not choose to believe." How profound. :) In fact that whole passage in John has no reality in accordance with the Latin view. "No one" secretly means "no one except me", etc.
If our love of God and righteousness depended on men's natural will, no man would obey God and follow Christ.
Right, that's what Gamecock was talking about in his response to Annalex. Gamecock said that we do have free will, but in our lost state we will never ever choose Christ. That is exactly in accordance with what we are saying. We have to make the distinction between "free will" meaning having "A will" and "free will" meaning having "a free will capable of thwarting God's will". If God's will is for all to be saved, and men can use their free will to not choose God, then men have the power and do use it to thwart God's will (making God a failure).
belief is not a matter of men's "free will."
Yeah, right.
30 ...Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved? 31 But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.People choose to believe or not believe, usually, after reasons to believe are given them.(Acts 16)
John 10:26 means what it says: that some people, like the Apostles, respond to Christ with love and come to know His voice, like sheep come to know the shepherd, and others — with suspicion (”if you are the Christ, tell us plainly”), as sheep of a different shepherd. We have the same mechanisms at work today, when some people hear the Church and love her, and others curse at her.
Links available on request.
Yes, me too absolutely. The teachings of "the world" can seem so right and easy, but it takes God to show us the truth, even after becoming a Christian. :)
Ridiculous. It just doesn't follow.
If God says He wants all to be saved, and if man makes that decision, and if most choose against God, THEN God fails to get what He has all power to get. What doesn't follow? Your side has God saying: "It is more important to me that I be a failure than to deny man his sovereignty over and above my will." Show me how that's wrong.
Only in recognizing God as the Omniscient, all powerful, can we understand His grace in choosing us in our sin. We don't chose Him, He chooses us. There is no greater love than this!
If God wanted to ensure all were saved, He would simply make it so. What He wants is for us to choose to love Him.
God does not fail by creating us with the free will to choose Him or not choose Him. Quite the opposite! He succeeds in creating exactly what He wants.
He "wants us all to be saved," yes, of course. But it is the choice of each of us.
What is more valuable? A chat conversation with a loved one who truly loves you, or a pre-programmed text generator that states love for you because you built it to do that?
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