Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex
If people think I'm wrong I just ask that they show me why.
I have already amply demonstrated how wrong you are about that, yet you persist.
Why do you say that it doesn't matter to Him?
Just logic. I suppose that if in Catholicism God gives the same saving grace to all men, such that all men have an equal chance to be saved from God's POV, AND, that God will not interfere with any man's decision whether to accept Him, THEN it must be true that it does not matter to God which particular individuals come to Him, if even any do. If God is unwilling to interfere, even though He "nudges", then presumably if no one at all accepted Him, the reaction of God would be "Oh well". :) To me that is a very impersonal idea of God.
Do you not know that Christ died even for the sake of salvation for those who killed Him? "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."
Sure, but this love that Christ showed here is comparatively shallow in Catholicism because not a single person ever made it to Heaven just because He did that. IOW, in Catholicism Christ saved no one, even though the Bible says: "Matt 1:21 : She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." As I understand it, you all believe that Christ only paid for the sins of a person before baptism (including original sin). After that, we are on our own to pay for our sins.
Theologically, to me this position greatly lessens the gravity of sin itself because it supposes that a man CAN pay for his own sins, when in fact he cannot. Further, it makes Christ's sacrifice worth ...... less because the worth of the sacrifice is certainly enough to in fact pay for all sins of all time.
How sad is that? It’s ALL about a personal relationship. Some may be content with religion, but God isn’t. He longs for a true relationship with His children, just like any daddy does. He wants to listen to us and to talk to us as well. He loves our worship and adoration, just as any parent would. I think that’s the part about ‘religion’ that I really dislike. It promotes man’s reaching God, not God reaching man through a relationship with Him. Sad indeed.
No, He does not design anyone not to respond. The design is always to respond to the call, but the free will is a part of the design.
If the design is just a general one and doesn't attach to anyone in particular, then that goes directly to my assertion that in Catholicism it doesn't matter to God which individual people come to Him, if any do. Your statement appears to support that position.
The reprobates choose to be reprobates.
On that we can agree.
The church has no power to save. Only God has that power and privilege.
Amen, John.
Yes, and nothing will prevail against the true church, the entire Body of Christ, believers in His Son.
Amen, dear Dr. E. The gates of hell will not prevail against the ONE true church, the Body of Christ international. US!
A wonderful post, John Leland! I wish all could really see and believe what you have written.
Sorry, annalex. The body of Christ is the one true church and has little or nothing to do with Catholicism. Catholics who know Christ as saviour are included in the one true church, of course. We believers are all counted as the one true church. Has zilch to do with any denomination.
AMEN! And as always, thanks for the great scriptures! :)
“He chooses us.” I have OFTEN lately wondered why I was the only one in my entire family to chase after God. I was the only one who continually went to church (albeit perhaps because I could sing and wanted to be in their choirs and sing solos, etc.). My brothers never did and as far as I know, neither have received Christ (one has died). My sister eventually came to know Him but not in the way I do, intimately. Hmm. He chose me for some reason. Maybe some day I’ll figure it out, LOL.
Exactly right. One cannot accept Christ on behalf of another. Each person has to do that for him/herself because it’s a choice we make. Nobody can choose that for us.
Exactly right. One cannot accept Christ on behalf of another. Each person has to do that for him/herself because it’s a choice we make. Nobody can choose that for us.
NO, Petronski, it is NOT irrelevant. John Leland is absolutely right. Nobody can choose Christ for another person. When that child grows up to understand, then he or she can make that choice. Nobody else can do it.
Arrogance is unattractive. John is right.
Bzzzt. Wrong.
It happens all the time in the Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church.
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