Scripture, Tradition, and Rome (Part 1)

http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/05/14/scripture-tradition-and-the-roman-catholic-church-part-1/ ^ | May 14th, 2007 | John MacArthur

[Diego1618]

Simon Bar-Jonah, the Apostle, was made Pope †Peter I by Christ Himself.

This is absolute garbage and not worthy of any credibility whatsoever. No wonder your organization had to torture, maim and kill folks to get them to join your insidious crusade during the dark ages. Most intelligent folks throughout the ages could see right through this false doctrine and they suffered because of it.

[Petronski]

Good grief.

Anger issues, eh?

[guitarplayer1953]

Are you recognized by the RCC as a saint? If not are you a saint?

[Petronski]

No and no.

[guitarplayer1953]

1.So then there is no salvation outside of the RCC?
2. One can only be a saint if they are dead.
3 Were all the saints that were written to by Paul dead?

[Petronski]

1. I doubt that means what you think it means.

2. Is that your claim?

3. No.

[guitarplayer1953]

According to your Rcc doctrine a saint is someone who is dead and has been acknowledged by the RCC.

According to your doctrine there is no salvation outside of the RCC.

Therefore there are no saints outside of the Rcc.

How did the living persons of the first century become saint if there was no RCC?

[Petronski]

First sentence: wrong. Canonization occurs after death, but again, canonization does not make one a saint.

Second sentence: Again, I doubt that means what you think it means.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?³³⁵ Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.³³⁶

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.³³⁷

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."³³⁸

Third sentence: therefore wrong.

How did the living persons of the first century become saint if there was no RCC?

Wrong.

[guitarplayer1953]

It is all based upon through the church. I know about the RCC and am not a member so it is my fault I have no salvation outside of the RCC. Right?

There was no RCC in the first century. There was no Pope in the 1st century.
There was the body of Christ which was not the RCC.

[Petronski]

There was no RCC in the first century? Who cares?

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church was founded by Christ, circa AD 32.

[Petronski]

There was no Pope in the 1st century.

There were five:

†Peter (32-67)
†Linus (67-76)
†Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
†Clement I (88-97)
†Evaristus (97-105)

[guitarplayer1953]

The church at Rome was so small that John did not even write a letter to it, it was so insignificant. Seems like he would of put it at the top of the list since it was the one and only true chuch.

[Petronski]

The church at Rome was so small that John did not even write a letter to it,

First, the size of the church at Rome at that time is not especially relevant.

Secondly, Paul DID write a letter to the Romans, so again I ask you, so what?

[guitarplayer1953]

Jesus did not even acknowledge the Church at Rome through John and what did Paul say about the church was not a glowing report, they were carnal.

[Petronski]

Jesus did not even acknowledge the Church at Rome through John and what did Paul say about the church was not a glowing report, they were carnal.

Completely irrelevant.

[guitarplayer1953]

Why is it irrelevant? Why is everything either a mis translation or irrelevant that does not line up with your traditions? You still have not answered if anyone outside of the RCC who willfully do not join the RCC is saved.

[Petronski]

Why is it irrelevant?

The existence of the Catholic Church at that time is not dependent on the size or repute of the Church in Rome at that time.

You still have not answered if anyone outside of the RCC who willfully do not join the RCC is saved.

I have answered it.

[guitarplayer1953]

from Christ through His Church to His body.
So what church is His church?
If I am not in that church am I in His body?
Please show me in the bible where it says that salvation is through the Church.

[Petronski]

Please show me in the bible where it says that salvation is through the Church.

Why would I do that?

[guitarplayer1953]

because that is what you said that salvation comes from Christ through His church to HIS BODY.
And my question still stands if I am not in the RCC am I in His body?