Atheoligical Tendency ~Open~

One Living Truth Ministries ^ | Oct 2006 | Ministry news letter

[colorcountry]

fred - -

Bump to my question just in case you missed it and aren’t actually trying to avoid answering.

Can you tell me about Joseph Smith’s first vision? Now is your great opportunity to proselytize to us. Tell us about the first vision.

[ejonesie22]

Many an LDS prophet has proclaimed the Book of Mormon to be the "Most accurate Book on the face of the Earth"

I found that so very humorous. They call into question the accuracy of the Bible, yet after almost 200 years they cannot find the home of the Nephites...

This despite the fact I can stand in the streets of Bethlehem, Nazareth, Jerusalem, see the stones of Herod's palace...

[ejonesie22]

He did not misquote, it is your limited ability to understand the full dynamics of what he says that causes the seeming inaccuracy. If you would only listen to the words of the “prophet” du jour you what have clear understanding.

[SENTINEL]

Not to mention the fact that the Book of Mormon has been changed over 4000 times since first published !! The last revision between the 2005 and 2007 versions changed among other things the introduction from claiming the american indians were of Hebrew descent to "from those among" hebrew descent.

Danged DNA testing.....

[SENTINEL]

Joe Smith:

... thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. Wherefore, thou seeth that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. ... because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them (Book of Mormon, I Nephi 13:26-29)."

Jesus Christ:

"Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

One of these two is a liar, and false prophet........

[colorcountry]

Right on! The question for Mormons is, “Do you trust God, or do you trust Joe Smith. In whom do you place your trust, because in this instance both cannot be right.

[ejonesie22]

Well you know we at the LDS do not let little things like details effect the accuracy of our work.

(Every time I see the whole Hebrew/Indian thing I get Mel Brooks playing the Indian chief in Blazing Saddles stuck in my head...)

[Tennessee Nana]

Jesus said..

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15, 16

Stourme said...

My TrueProphet-O-Meter is not ringing...sorry :(
___________________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Jesus is not a prophet of God according to the mormons...

Even though the mormons plaster the name of Jesus over everything, in order to give themselves validation...

[greyfoxx39]

Even though the mormons plaster the name of Jesus over everything, in order to give themselves validation...

That's what makes them "Christians"...don'tcha know?

[Tennessee Nana]

Polygamy hearings on now

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan3_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS3

[greyfoxx39]

Thanks for the link

[Tennessee Nana]

Orrin Hatch is there also...

He just ask someone to verify that the LDS and the fLDS are not connected...

[ejonesie22]

LOL...

Ooops...

[greyfoxx39]

I just saw this on another website: " The FLDS members are Mormons in the wild, and they practice the "old time religion."

Nailed it!

[greyfoxx39]

Another post from the same website:

"I was reflecting last night on the mormon concept of baptism and what it all means. They talk of the cleansing that comes from the blood of Christ. Now I not only believed, but taught that stuff for years. I thought I had a very good handle on it but now I am a bit confused.

In classical times on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest would conduct a ceremony that would transfer the communities sins of omission to the scape goat. With the other offerings available in the individual for their sins they could become clean in the sight of G_d.

The one Yeshua (Jesus) then comes and is said to take on the role of the Suffering Messiah, taking on the part of that one great sacrifice for all mankind's benefit. The mormon view even claims that the non-accountable children's sins are covered by this sacrifice, as do the sins of those who repent, etc. We can haggle over faith vs. works, but I think very few would argue that it is still via the grace of Jesus that this still happens and all the other noise is just how conditional the "price" that was paid is. And mormonism claims to be that one and only true church of Jesus Christ.

Now add in the endowment. The initiatory now throws in another additional layer. Faithfulness is now required "that through your faithfulness you may become clean" and from what? "The blood and sins of this generation." It sounds to me that this cleansing is pretty much identical to the scapegoat offering. But then what of the baptism and atonement? Has not the Savior paid for those sins already? Why must we become saviors to ourselves by struggling through an ordeal of sacrifice (as it turns out is meant by faithfulness because of all the arbitrary requirements)? Keeping the commandments is no longer a choice, as a token of love, devotion, and respect for the Lord, his teachings, and his sacrifice; and an element of worship. It becomes a kind of contest for the aggressive personalities to show who now is the best savior of themselves, the most worthy."

[Tennessee Nana]

Dr Fisher who helps the Lost Boys up now...

[Godzilla]

Show me the contradictions from the accounts written by Br. Joseph, not the second hand ones.

Fine, I guess that throws out the official account doesn’t it hmmmmmm?

Let us take a look at two accounts that clearly had smiths influence in writing and compare to the official one. Source locations with links to images of the actual documents are here:

http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/fvision-accounts.html – non mormon site
http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm - mormon site

1832 - History, 1832, Joseph Smith Letterbook 1, pp.2,3, in the handwriting of Joseph Smith
Principle elements of account:
Smith started serious study of the scriptures at age 12
Felt convicted of sins
Determined all churches were wrong
No mention of a revival
Omits money-digging context
Age 15 (in his 16th year)
Location not clear
Vision of the Savior – Jesus Christ (has a “Christian experience”)
Told his sins were forgiven. Fell back into transgression.
At age 17 he again prayed and an angel appeared telling him about the plates and announced again he was forgiven of his sins.

1834-35 — Oliver Cowdery, with Joseph Smith’s help, published the first history of Mormonism in the LDS periodical Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Dec. 1834, vol.1, no.3.
Principle elements of the account:
A revival stirred in him a desire to “know for himself of the certainty and reality of pure and holy religion.”
Desired to know if a Supreme being did exist, and wanted manifestation that his sins were forgiven.
Age 17 (1823)
He was in his bedroom
Vision of an angel
Told sins were forgiven and Lord would do a work through him
Told about gold plates and their location

1838 — This account became the official version, now part of Mormon Scripture in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith — History, 1:7-20. Special note again – this account was NOT written by Smith nor had his input.
Principle elements of the account:
A local revival caused him to wonder which church was right, it had never occurred to him all were wrong
Age 14 (1820)
He was in a grove
Had a vision of two personages
One identifies the other as his son (by implication God the Father and Jesus, but not explicitly stated)
Was told all churches are wrong and is to join none of them
Claimed to come under great persecution
Fell into all kinds of temptations
Three years later has vision of an angel

Internal Contradiction #1 – Age, was it 14, 15 or 17?

Internal Contradiction #2 – Who/what visited him – an angel, Jesus only, Jesus and the Father?

Internal Contradiction #3 – Regarding other churches, did he determine all by himself they were wrong (figured it out on his own) or was he told they were wrong (never having occurred to him prior to that).

Internal Contradiction #4 – Location bedroom or woods?

Internal Contradiction #5 – All three reference a visitation when 17, however, the 1834-35 account would not make sense that he was seeking proof of the existence of God – IF - the official version or the 1832 version are correct and he had a visitation when he was younger.

External Contradiction #1 – There was no 1820 revivals taking place, but there were revivals in 1823-24 time frame (invalidates the 1838 official version)

External Contradiction #2 – Joseph Smith applied for membership in the Methodist church in 1828 – yet it and all other Christian churches were supposedly condemned and he was ordered not to join any of them, according to the vision accounts.

External Contradiction #3 – In 1832 smith claimed to have a revelation which stated that a man could not see God without the Priesthood. This revelation is published as Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants, verses 21-22. Joseph did not even claim to have the Priesthood in 1820, and the Doctrine and Covenants clearly says that without the Priesthood no man can see God and live.

External Contradiction #4 – There is no evidence of any persecution of smith for his vision, either in local news accounts or even his mothers story about the events of the period.

External Contradiction #5 – It is strange that Joseph can recall the exact date of the first visit by Moroni (September 21, 1823), yet he cannot recall the date of his vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ.

While the internal contradictions condemn the story adequately enough, the external contradictions put the nails in the coffin. Remember, since you hold to first hand accounts, the official account doe not meet that standard and the handwritten account by Smith contradicts it too. And before the second hand accounts (told by smith to another and published) – much of the official church history is based upon these second and even third hand accounts.

As far as Paul’s accounts are concerned, I see nothing that serves as a contradiction even remotely resembling the magnitude of the clear contradictions of smiths accounts.

[Godzilla]

Since you think that two difference visitations are the same vision, you show a lack, of knowledge of what really happened.
Was this because you followed what someone else said and did not study it yourself?

I will preface this because this was answered in the previous post. I read the accounts and have read mormon apologetics regarding it. I cited a mormon and non-mormon web site for source data and links to the actual documents and transcripts. The accounts I cited are from official church documents. I repeated the summaries since they were the same as I came up with after reviewing them. Now the question for you is - are you just repeating what you've been told, or have you bothered to read the accounts and see the differences?

[Tennessee Nana]

In classical times on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest would conduct a ceremony that would transfer the communities sins of omission to the scape goat. With the other offerings available in the individual for their sins they could become clean in the sight of G_d.
___________________________________________________

Were the victims of the Mountain Meadows Massacre just “restored” scapegoats ????

[Godzilla]

please show me
*********************

I will provide the links below since they are rather large image files

http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/1832jshistory-p1.html

http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/1832jshistory-p2.html

http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/1832jshistory-p3.html

http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/1832jshistory-p4.html