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To: Zionist Conspirator
I'm very sorry to learn you feel this way, because it's nonsense. The TaNa"KH very plainly states that G-d rose up pagan enemies of Israel at various times as a punishment for them. Does this mean He approved of their paganism? Not at all. Nevertheless Assyria was the rod of His anger, though it was punished in due turn.

Perhaps I need to be more nuanced. It is one thing for God to use pre-existing people or circumstances to send a scourge to His people by pushing them to the fore; it is something else again to suppose that God creates a group of people, with beliefs highly contrary to His Truth and Will, specifically to effect the same purpose. That seemed to be what you were implying, and, if such were the case, then you seemed to be accepting the notion of Jesus as God, since God would not raise a "false concept" ex nihilo to be anyone's scourge.

So why, after the Torah was "abrogated" (chas vechalilah!) did G-d feel compelled to replace it with something else that isn't even in the Scriptures? Hmm. I suppose I can see how it looks that way to you, but my point is simply that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and if the Torah was abrogated, then Paul's condemnation of "works" in Galatians should apply to all rituals, all oral traditions, all holidays, all ceremonials, etc. However, if these rituals, oral traditions, holidays, and ceremonials of the churches are valid, then how much the more so (`al 'achat kammah vekhammah) are those of the Torah, towards which your attitude is identical to that of Luther's towards Catholicism.

I think you miss my point again. St. Paul, clearly, condemns "works" which are attempted as a means to storm Heaven as sufficient for entry thereto. All of the ceremonials surrounding the bare-bones of the Sacraments themselves are not directly imposed by Jesus,; therefore, they do not have a direct counterpart in the Torah, which was, in fact, imposed on the Israelites by God Himself. Our "works" of worship, as I think you mean them, do not claim any salvific power, while the Jews consciously believed they were saved by the Law. You are forcing more of a correlation here than is warranted. Luther's problem was similar, insofar as he tried to demonstrate that Catholics view "works" the same way the Jews did. But this is a false assertion, a straw man set-up to justify his total rejection of "works" as even a necessary fruit of sanctifying grace. That Luther's views were what they were detracts not a whit from my Catholic Faith. I cannot help what he chose to believe.

The raising up of scourges to punish Israel is so much a part of the resume of the Biblical G-d that I cannot help but wonder if you are too liberal to believe in such a Deity. Do you also reject His right to order the exterminations of entire nations of people, including children, sucklings, and animals? Are you among those who say "obviously G-d would never do such a thing, so He didn't, but the primitive Israelites thought He did because that's how people thought back then"?

I could call that "mind reading," but I won't. I think I understand your thought. But you err. No. Clearly, the inspired Word of God that is the Old Testament relates the command for these exterminations you allude to. God was within His rights to use natural disasters and Israelite armies to exterminate various peoples for their wickedness. They had utterly rejected even the natural law, and had reduced themselves, among other things, to such practices as infant sacrifice. God had not yet given man the opportunity to live in sanctifying grace, and was in no way obligated to do so before "the appointed time." The utter depravity of the peoples in question required, even under the Noachide Laws you refer to, the punishment that was meted-out. Indeed, when it was Israel's turn to do the same sorts of abominations under just about every-other king, God used similar means to deal with them, too. I have no problem with this, and I object, if anything, to the fact that you seem to assume every Catholic would have problems here.

133 posted on 07/09/2008 7:58:35 PM PDT by magisterium
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To: magisterium
Thank you for your very thoughtful response, and my apologies for misunderstanding and offending you.

Our "works" of worship, as I think you mean them, do not claim any salvific power, while the Jews consciously believed they were saved by the Law.

There are two things wrong with this statement. First, in the liturgical churches, the sacraments (which are certainly ceremonials) cause what they signify. And secondly, the Jews never believed they were "saved by the Law" because Judaism was never about "salvation" to begin with. Observance of the Torah was never a means to salvation; it was the reason the universe was created. The purpose of Judaism/Noachism is not "salvation" but tiqqun `olam bemalkhut Shaqqay (recitification of the world in the kingdom of the A-mighty), and this is achieved by Israel observing the Torah (which draws down holiness from the upper realms) and non-Jews observing the Noachide Laws (which spreads this holiness throughout the world).

Have you ever seen a Jewish prayerbook? There are no prayers asking G-d to save one's soul or take on to Heaven when he dies. There are prayers for forgiveness of sins, yes, but this is because sins impede the perfection of the world (just as mitzvot advance it). There are prayers for long life, children, the necessities of life, Torah wisdom, good deeds, fear of sin, and forgiveness of sins, but nothing about "please take me to Heaven when I die." HaShem did not create the material world (the lowest of all the worlds) as a temporary test before Heaven. He created it in order that it, the lowest of the worlds, would be suffused with G-dliness as are the higher worlds and that this would be done through observance of the Torah.

The assumption that the goal of Judaism is "salvation" (as understood by chr*stians) is chr*stianity's great foundational misunderstanding.

I apologize again for "reading your mind" and am relieved to learn that you are not among those who reject any commandment of G-d that offends modern sensibilities. However, you will, I hope, forgive me since I learned long ago that most Catholics tend to be very, very liberal on the Bible (especially the "old testament"). Of all the Catholics on this forum only wideawake makes the effort to step in and defend total Biblical inerrancy publicly. Just last weekend I had quite a shouting match with Catholic FReepers who were shocked--shocked--that I would accuse them of denying total Biblical inerrancy. To the best of my recollection, every one of these offended people admitted to being a theistic evolutionist when confronted.

Please forgive me, but there is something deeply wrong with any religion that produces so many theistic evolutionists and people who dismiss the first eleven chapters of the Torah as "didactic mythology."

Thank you again for making the effort to understand my position.

152 posted on 07/10/2008 7:24:39 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Vayiftach HaShem 'et-pi ha'aton vato'mer leVil`am meh-`asiti lekha ki hikkitani zeh shalosh regalim?)
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