Jesus says that they will believe for a time and then fall away. Believers believe. Non believers don’t believe.
Now we can fool around with definitions of ‘true believer’, as we wander from denomination to denomination, but the words of Jesus are plain.
***Anyone can say the words “I believe”. It continues to amaze me that in Catholicism that shallowness is all it takes to be a “true believer”.***
Jesus is not talking about what people say. He says that some believe and then fall away. That is their state, not their words.
***All the evidence, including much of Hebrews, says that it is possible for believers to fall away.
All the “evidence” first goes through the cleansing of the Church before it reaches Catholic ears. :) God’s word does not need to be cleansed.***
Hebrews
Chapter 2
1
1 Therefore, we must attend all the more to what we have heard, so that we may not be carried away.
2
For if the word announced through angels proved firm, and every transgression and disobedience received its just recompense,
3
how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?
Hebrews
Chapter 3
1
1 Therefore, holy “brothers,” sharing in a heavenly calling, reflect on Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,
...
5
Moses was “faithful in all his house” as a “servant” to testify to what would be spoken,
6
2 but Christ was faithful as a son placed over his house. We are his house, if (only) we hold fast to our confidence and pride in our hope.
Hebrews
Chapter 4
1
Therefore, let us be on our guard while the promise of entering into his rest remains, that none of you seem to have failed.
2
For in fact we have received the good news just as they did. But the word that they heard did not profit them, for they were not united in faith with those who listened.
3
For we who believed enter into (that) rest, just as he has said: “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter into my rest,’” and yet his works were accomplished at the foundation of the world.
4
For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this manner, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works”;
5
and again, in the previously mentioned place, “They shall not enter into my rest.”
6
Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience,
7
he once more set a day, “today,” when long afterwards he spoke through David, as already quoted: “Oh, that today you would hear his voice: ‘Harden not your hearts.’”
8
Now if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterwards of another day.
9
Therefore, a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God.
10
And whoever enters into God’s rest, rests from his own works as God did from his.
11
Therefore, let us strive to enter into that rest, so that no one may fall after the same example of disobedience.
and so on.
If we are disobedient to God we will fall. If only the elite are saved, then all these exhortations are worthless. The Reformed elite cannot fail; therefore why speak of ‘so that no one may fall’?
***So, I asked you if you think God acts within time. If you say “no” then that would be the Deist view, that God creates and then goes away. But if you say “yes” then God must have a plan because He causes things in succession. Was Jesus born before He was crucified and rose from the dead, or do you think all of those events are still going on right now for God? ***
Jesus Christ incarnated acted within time. God is extra-temporal. All time for Him is in an instant.
We know that God does not go away and leave His Creation alone. Yet we also know that God has given us free will. Therefore what we do with our free will is ours. God knows each movement of the sparrow and each blade of grass; yet He does not micromanage them and cause every movement of every electron in every atom.
You present two examples and say that the Catholic must adhere to either exclusively of the other. Neither is Scriptural and neither is true.
***If you say the latter then it could be rationalized that Christ needs to keep being continuously re-sacrificed in order to earn salvation. ***
Rationalization is the province of human beings, not God.
***If that is your belief then by definition God has never actually accomplished anything finally, ever. I suppose that’s why we might need the men of your Church, to finish what God could not finish because He is outside of time.***
Finish. Plan. All human things. The Catechism says:
759 “The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,” to which he calls all men in his Son.
That is the ‘plan’.
***God’s plan involves a series of events that happen within time. If God does not have a plan, then it was His judgment that chaos should rule the earth concerning His children and we are completely on our own.***
We’re trying to get you to understand a third direction. That is what we read in the Bible.
If your interpretation is correct, the God is also a plain liar. God lies because He does not finish what He started:
Phil 1:6 : ... being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
God lies because He will fail to rescue us from every evil attack:
2 Tim 4:18 : The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
God lies because His work can now be undone:
Eccl 3:14 : I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.
God lies because He loses sheep:
John 10:27-29 : 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
God lies because what He ordains does not stand:
John 15:16 : 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. KJV
These are just a few examples. I really COULD go on for a long time. All of these lies of God result from the Catholic plain meaning view of the instant passage. From here, the Church must reinterpret all the perseverance verses I listed and all the ones I could list. This process simultaneously occurs over many issues. The effects are exponential until finally most of the Bible has been reinterpreted to match tradition. But of course, the reinterpretations all are plain meanings. :)
***All the evidence, including much of Hebrews, says that it is possible for believers to fall away. [Excerpts from Heb. 2, 3, 4] ...... If we are disobedient to God we will fall. If only the elite are saved, then all these exhortations are worthless. The Reformed elite cannot fail; therefore why speak of ‘so that no one may fall’?
First of all, I am assuming you are only talking about falling away permanently. Of course I would agree that all Christians fall away temporarily during their Christian lives. Anyway, the passages from Hebrews are all true and correct, IF we fail to persevere we do not go to Heaven. But if we let scripture interpret scripture God elsewhere tells us that He will not let that happen for the elect. God keeps His promises. He is either in control or He is not. IOW, the passages you cite state the truth that God does not save irrespective of perseverance. However, elsewhere we find out where that perseverance comes from. Even Hebrews helps us here:
Heb 10:13-14 : 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Heb 13:20-21 : 20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
What is the answer to this prayer, will God do it? Reformers say absolutely YES and Catholics say absolutely NO, or only sometimes. That's the problem, in Reformed theology the passages you cited and the ones I did are in harmony, but in Catholicism they strongly conflict.
Jesus Christ incarnated acted within time. God is extra-temporal. All time for Him is in an instant.
Oh, this could be big. :) Does this mean you think that God does NOT act within time now, since Christ is not here incarnate?
We know that God does not go away and leave His Creation alone. Yet we also know that God has given us free will. Therefore what we do with our free will is ours.
Do you think you know what is best for you better than God does? If you do then you should be in control, just as you appear to believe you are. If, however, God knows better, then why wouldn't you WANT Him to be in charge and directing you? We put ourselves into the hands of professionals every day who have knowledge and abilities we do not, so why wouldn't that apply to spiritual matters?
Finish. Plan. All human things.
No, God speaks of His plans.
Num 33:56 : And then I will do to you what I plan to do to them.'"
1 Chron 28:12, 19 : 12 He gave him the plans of all that the Spirit had put in his mind for the courts of the temple of the Lord and all the surrounding rooms, for the treasuries of the temple of God and for the treasuries for the dedicated things. ...... 19 "All this," David said, "I have in writing from the hand of the Lord upon me, and he gave me understanding in all the details of the plan ."
Job 23:14 : He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store.
Ps 33:11 : But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.
Isa 14:26-27 : 26 This is the plan determined for the whole world; this is the hand stretched out over all nations. 27 For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?
Jer 29:11 : For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Amos 3:7 : Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.
Eph 1:11-12 : 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
It could not be more clear that God has plans that He executes within time. We are even told that He reveals them to us, and He does in the scriptures.