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To: Forest Keeper
I said God has a plan and you said that He doesn't because for Him all time is now. The only reason I can think of for why Catholics always say this is to try to moot whatever the point is that a Protestant is trying to make. More specifically, I think Catholics are really getting to the idea that God has no plan because man LEADS God with man's decisions. Man must be in control and sovereign, thus God has no plan. However, this fails because of what we see in the real world.

So, I asked you if you think God acts within time. If you say "no" then that would be the Deist view, that God creates and then goes away. But if you say "yes" then God must have a plan because He causes things in succession. Was Jesus born before He was crucified and rose from the dead, or do you think all of those events are still going on right now for God? If you say the latter then it could be rationalized that Christ needs to keep being continuously re-sacrificed in order to earn salvation. If that is your belief then by definition God has never actually accomplished anything finally, ever. I suppose that's why we might need the men of your Church, to finish what God could not finish because He is outside of time.

If, OTOH, Christ died once and for all then things relating to it happened both before and after that event. A plan. God's plan involves a series of events that happen within time. If God does not have a plan, then it was His judgment that chaos should rule the earth concerning His children and we are completely on our own.

AMEN!!!

Like many of us on these threads, I've also noticed the tendency of Rome to give the non-answer "God is timeless" when confronted by the actuality of God's sovereignty. They cannot justify their open-theism with the God of Scripture, so they ditch the Scriptures.

"God is outside of time" is an empty response that tries to sound intelligent, but ends up contradicting the very reason for the Scriptures -- to inform us of God's will and the purpose for our lives, all according to His plan of creation determined by Him from before the foundation of the world.

God exists within time and outside of time; but God created within time. At the moment of creation, God declared the universe and all that would ever occur. How could He not, and still remain God? How could an omnipotent, omniscient Creator not "know" every movement of every atom that would ever exist?

And that "foreknowledge" of all things is absolute because it has been determined by His will and purpose in creating life in the first place.

Or else things would be different. He's God. He gets what He wants because He already has it.

2,875 posted on 08/13/2008 11:07:12 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"God is outside of time" is an empty response that tries to sound intelligent, but ends up contradicting the very reason for the Scriptures -- to inform us of God's will and the purpose for our lives, all according to His plan of creation determined by Him from before the foundation of the world.

Yes, excellent point, Dr. E. If all we need to remember is that God is outside of time, then the whole history of the Bible becomes malleable and subject to revision by tradition. Inconvenient truths don't matter because God is outside of time.

And that "foreknowledge" of all things is absolute because it has been determined by His will and purpose in creating life in the first place.

AMEN! Warfield couldn't have said it better himself. :)

2,898 posted on 08/13/2008 5:29:04 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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