Catholics & Salvation; And the answer is: Maybe.

Stand To Reason ^ | Gregory Koukl

[annalex]

The authorization the Church received to act in the person of Christ is manifold: to offer the Eucharist (Lk 22:19), to forgive (or retain) sins (Jn 20:23), to ordain others (Timothy, Titus), and to teach the entire sacred deposit of faith, both canonized Scripture and the Holy Tradition (2 Tess. 2:14). No one outside of the Catholic Chruch received the entire package; in fact, we’ve been warned that many will come in order to lie to us about it (Mt 24:5).

[Forest Keeper]

The authorization the Church received to act in the person of Christ is manifold: to offer the Eucharist (Lk 22:19), to forgive (or retain) sins (Jn 20:23), to ordain others (Timothy, Titus), and to teach the entire sacred deposit of faith, both canonized Scripture and the Holy Tradition (2 Tess. 2:14). No one outside of the Catholic Chruch received the entire package; in fact, we’ve been warned that many will come in order to lie to us about it (Mt 24:5).

Your interpretation of Luke 22:19 would mean that Christ gave His body (in sacrifice) only for the Apostles and not for us. That's a bummer. Your interpretation of John 20:23 makes the Apostles and your clergy equal with Christ. And, your interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:14 has the Gospel of your Church being different from the Gospel of Christ, else why would you claim it as a Gospel of YOUR men? :)

But all of these interpretations rely on the incorrect single exclusionist interpretation that "God's Church" is your Church alone, and that the unique authority of the Apostles was transferred to all of your men in succession. Then by definition the Bible means whatever your men say it means, etc., regardless of the text, since they are superior to the Bible.

It's interesting, though, that you would mention Matt. 24:5:

Matt 24:5 : For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

If the text counted then this is exactly what it appears the position of the priest IS. :)

[Quix]

and the Holy Tradition . . . No one outside of the Catholic Chruch received the entire package; . . .

UNMITIGATED
BALDERDASH.

[OLD REGGIE]

(OLD REGGIE) I trust our loving God to make a home for him.
But then, I believe God loves us all.***
How would you come to that belief?

John 6:
[15] that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
[16] For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[17] For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
[18] He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
[19] And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And here is where I defend the Catholic Teaching position on this question. I believe this "unbaptized" boy is not automatically condemned. If he loves God whether "formally" or not he has eternal life.

I have defended selected Calvinist teaching from time ti time and you have declared me a Calvinist.

Do you now intend to declare me a Catholic?

[OLD REGGIE]

You seem to forget that when the Bible speaks of wine, they actually mean grape juice.

It is!

Do you think when Jesus speaks of the "fruit of the vine" He was speaking of Cucumber juice?

[wagglebee]

No, I think He meant WINE.

[trisham]

I’m so confused. :)

[wagglebee]

Yeah well, I’ve already determined that YOU are easily confused! :-)

[trisham]

LOL! You bet!

[MarkBsnr]

***We would say they are all true believers, but obviously common sense tells us that this does not mean that all believers have it “right” at any given time. There are wacko Protestant ministers like Rev. Wright and there are wacko priests like Father Pfleger. However, that doesn’t diminish the expectation that if a person is right with Christ that he will continue to grow in his knowledge of the truth and continue to be conformed to the image of Christ.***

Biblically, we have it from Jesus that men can fall away after they have it right.

Luke 8:

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“A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path and was trampled, and the birds of the sky ate it up.
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Some seed fell on rocky ground, and when it grew, it withered for lack of moisture.
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Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew with it and choked it.
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And some seed fell on good soil, and when it grew, it produced fruit a hundredfold.” After saying this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear.”
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Then his disciples asked him what the meaning of this parable might be.
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He answered, “Knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been granted to you; but to the rest, they are made known through parables so that ‘they may look but not see, and hear but not understand.’
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4 “This is the meaning of the parable. The seed is the word of God.
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Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved.
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Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.
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As for the seed that fell among thorns, they are the ones who have heard, but as they go along, they are choked by the anxieties and riches and pleasures of life, and they fail to produce mature fruit.
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But as for the seed that fell on rich soil, they are the ones who, when they have heard the word, embrace it with a generous and good heart, and bear fruit through perseverance.

If we persevere. Our choice to persevere or not. Therefore we can fall away.

***I don’t know how it can be said that we fired the Holy Spirit since we say He leads all believers, INCLUDING your leaders.***

God may lead, but we don’t have to follow. There are many who follow the lord of this world and claim that they are following Jesus.

***God has a specific plan to sanctify all believers throughout their lives, and obviously those plans take very different paths.***

Plan? God is everywhere and everywhen. Out of time. He is not a military style planner - everything has already existed for Him. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

[MarkBsnr]

***I have defended selected Calvinist teaching from time ti time and you have declared me a Calvinist.***

I don’t think that I have - perhaps an reference or two about stooging for them. :)

***Do you now intend to declare me a Catholic?***

I can’t do that. Way beyond my pay grade.

[MarkBsnr]

***Do you think when Jesus speaks of the “fruit of the vine” He was speaking of Cucumber juice?***

If it were Harry Potter, it might be pumpkin juice. :)

My reference, of course, is to the idea that unfermented grape juice would have lasted for any length of time in the region without either fermenting or spoiling at all.

[Forest Keeper]

Biblically, we have it from Jesus that men can fall away after they have it right. [Parable of the Sower in Luke 8]

No, in only one example does someone "have it right". A brief explanation from Got Questions?

Jesus’ explanation of the Parable of the Sower highlights four different responses to the gospel. The seed is “the word of the kingdom.” The hard ground represents someone who is hardened by sin; he hears but does not understand the Word, and Satan plucks the message away, keeping the heart dull and preventing the Word from making an impression. The stony ground pictures a man who professes delight with the Word; however, his heart is not changed, and when trouble arises, his so-called faith quickly disappears. The thorny ground depicts one who seems to receive the Word, but whose heart is full of riches, pleasures, and lusts; the things of this world take his time and attention away from the Word, and he ends up having no time for it. The good ground portrays the one who hears, understands, and receives the Word—and then allows the Word to accomplish its result in his life. The man represented by the “good ground” is the only one of the four who is truly saved, because salvation’s proof is fruit (Matthew 3:7-8; 7:15-20).

The only thing that matters is the condition of the soil. Fruit will only come from good soil. Therefore, the first three were never true believers, they were pretenders, the "Lord, Lord" crowd.

God may lead, but we don’t have to follow. There are many who follow the lord of this world and claim that they are following Jesus.

Yes, they are the pretenders the parable talks about. They are not true believers and the Spirit does not dwell in them or lead them. Those the Spirit leads make plenty of mistakes, but cannot fall away permanently.

FK: ***God has a specific plan to sanctify all believers throughout their lives, and obviously those plans take very different paths.***

Plan? God is everywhere and everywhen. Out of time. He is not a military style planner - everything has already existed for Him. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

I don't see how your first statement addresses the issue. Do you believe that God acts within time? If "yes" then God has a plan. In fact, foreknowledge and predestination can only be different IF you believe God does not act within time. A Deist would say that foreknowledge and predestination are different because God just creates and then goes away. To suppose that they are different is to state that God is NOT in control, and that history as it unfolds does so by random chance, by man's whim.

I have heard many Catholics tell me that they believe God is in control, but I'm afraid the theology just doesn't back that up. Catholic theology has God CHOOSING chaos, the random results of man's will. That describes a WHOLLY irresponsible and immoral God.

[OLD REGGIE]

No, I think He meant WINE.

I don't doubt for one second that He passed wine around. Wine made from grapes. Fermented grape juice.

[wagglebee]

Wine made from grapes. Fermented grape juice.

Wine is made from fermented grapes, not the grape juice which is served in many Protestant church services.

[Marysecretary]

I believe God has a plan for all of our lives. But if we don’t choose to go His way, He’ll use someone else, or maybe we were the only one He had for a specific ‘job’ and we blew it. Who knows.

[OLD REGGIE]

Wine is made from fermented grapes, not the grape juice which is served in many Protestant church services.

And the "bread" the Priest passes out is broken from a loaf?

[annalex]

Your interpretation of Luke 22:19 would mean that Christ gave His body (in sacrifice) only for the Apostles and not for us.

The meaning of Luke 22:19 is the same the Church has held for 2000 years, so it is not "my interpretation". It also is plain reading of what is written:

17 And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks, and said: Take, and divide it among you: 18 For I say to you, that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come. 19 And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.

(Luke 22)

Jesus told the Apostles to take the species and eat them as a covenant with "many" (vv 17-19, cf. Mt 26:26-28, Mk 14:22-24). This is consistent with John 6:52 "if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever", and obviously refers to all believers. But in Luke 22:19 another commandment is given for the future, "do this for a commemoration of me"; that is a separate commandment given the apostles only, not to eat but to give the Eucharist, in a manner analogous to the feeding of the thousands.

Your interpretation of John 20:23 makes the Apostles and your clergy equal with Christ.

Againm it is not an interpretation but a direct and plain commandment to forgive or retain sins, and no it does not give the Apostles an equality with Christ.

your interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:14 has the Gospel of your Church being different from the Gospel of Christ

We have the same four gospels, but the Sacred Deposit of faith includes knowledge not therein recorded: for example, the meaning and manner of the liturgy, and the entire body of knowledge that existed prior to the Evangelists, St. Peter, St. Paul and St. Jude wrote anything at all. This is why the Catholic Church explains the Scripture, while others merely attempt to interpret it.

this is exactly what it appears the position of the priest IS

The Church gave you the New Testament and explained the Old. You are free to examine the Catechism and compare it with the Scripture. Where is the deception?

[MarkBsnr]

***The only thing that matters is the condition of the soil. Fruit will only come from good soil. Therefore, the first three were never true believers, they were pretenders, the “Lord, Lord” crowd.***

Interesting. I will still defer to the words of the Lord:

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Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved.
13
Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.
14
As for the seed that fell among thorns, they are the ones who have heard, but as they go along, they are choked by the anxieties and riches and pleasures of life, and they fail to produce mature fruit.

Those on the path have the word of God taken away by the devil. Not true believers after he’s done with them.

Those on rocky believe for a time. For a time, FK, they believe.

Those in the thorns also believe for a time, and then fall away.

All the evidence, including much of Hebrews, says that it is possible for believers to fall away.

***Do you believe that God acts within time? If “yes” then God has a plan. ***

Do you have the details?

***In fact, foreknowledge and predestination can only be different IF you believe God does not act within time. ***

God supersedes time. He acts within and without.

***To suppose that they are different is to state that God is NOT in control, and that history as it unfolds does so by random chance, by man’s whim.***

Matthew 5-9 and 25 might ease your mind on this idea.

[MarkBsnr]

***And the “bread” the Priest passes out is broken from a loaf?***

It is unleavened bread, most of the Latin churches use individual wafers. Leavened bread goes mouldy in that climate.