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To: chs68
Try looking at it this way: to understand what He meant, you have to harmonize the two passages. Clearly, He gave the Apostles power to forgive sins for a reason, right? If He wanted people to take their sins directly to God alone, He would have been sure to omit giving mere men this power in John 20. John 20 becomes quite superfluous and downright contradictory if He wanted people to go to God directly. So, it becomes clear that, harmonizing this passage with the Our Father, petitioning the Father for forgiveness of sins is ordinarily to be done within the forum of Confession, at least for mortal sins. Or, if you like, the petition in the Our Father could be effective even before confession, if one considers that one is really asking, at this point, for the grace of true repentance and contrition for his sins, without which, one cannot be forgiven. One must repent before God before he can be forgiven by God. confession without any repentance or sorrow for one's sins is worthless.

Don't go overboard weighing one passage against the other. Each finds meaning in the other. And consider that all Churches before the 1500s taught that God's forgiveness is normatively found within the context of John 20, as the Catholic Church teaches to this day.

117 posted on 07/04/2008 4:25:49 PM PDT by magisterium
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To: magisterium; chs68

magisterium: “And consider that all Churches before the 1500s taught that God’s forgiveness is normatively found within the context of John 20, as the Catholic Church teaches to this day.”

Some Apostolic Traditions:

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest . . . and by the Spirit of the high-priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command”
(Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men” (John Chrysostom, The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110])... Ignatius of Antioch

The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: “Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251])...
Cyprian of Carthage

Sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, “Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” [1 Cor. 11:27] (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).

But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, “Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works” [Rev. 2:5], which is certainly said to him who has evidently fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, “Alms deliver from death” [Tob. 12:9] (ibid., 51[55]:22).

It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374])... Basil the Great

If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388])..Jerome

When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins, which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance
(Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]). S Augustine
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0110sbs.asp

chs68, Here’s a few of the Apostolic Traditions - unchanged to this day. St. Augustine may have answered your question 1600 yrs ago...perhaps?


121 posted on 07/04/2008 8:15:03 PM PDT by chase19
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