Posted on 07/03/2008 10:06:26 AM PDT by NYer
magisterium: “And consider that all Churches before the 1500s taught that God’s forgiveness is normatively found within the context of John 20, as the Catholic Church teaches to this day.”
Some Apostolic Traditions:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).
“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest . . . and by the Spirit of the high-priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command”
(Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).
“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men” (John Chrysostom, The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).
You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110])... Ignatius of Antioch
The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: “Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251])...
Cyprian of Carthage
Sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, “Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” [1 Cor. 11:27] (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).
But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, “Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works” [Rev. 2:5], which is certainly said to him who has evidently fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, “Alms deliver from death” [Tob. 12:9] (ibid., 51[55]:22).
It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374])... Basil the Great
If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388])..Jerome
When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins, which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance
(Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]). S Augustine
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0110sbs.asp
chs68, Here’s a few of the Apostolic Traditions - unchanged to this day. St. Augustine may have answered your question 1600 yrs ago...perhaps?
***“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).***
Don’t you understand? The Apostles got it all wrong and the Church was completely corrupt and unable to guide anyone to Heaven until (_____________) arrived in the 20th or 21st Century who got it all right and all straight and has unraveled the mysteries of Christ and all you have to do is donate your money and body to this messenger of Christ in order to have salvation.
Cheques, money orders, or good old plain cash in small unmarked bills will all be accepted with relish.
St. Augustine is a hero of Reformation until you examine his works closely. Their magnifying glasses are usually well covered in Vaseline.
http://www.catholiccompany.com/catholic-books/1001641/Navarre-Bible-New-Testament-Complete-Set/
Good heavens, no. Read those Gospels!
Hi NYer. I was away for a week.
I know my sins are forgiven because Scripture tells me that if I ask that He is faithful and forgives me. I only know it based on God’s promises and not because of anything that I do on my own. I trust in God that he is faithful to his promises and covenants. That is all.
I will say this, however. I had a talk with one of my pastors about this years ago and we both agreed that confession to a Priest is a good thing in the sense that it helps discipline people to ASK for the forgiveness and that it is often very helpful for a person to discuss things with another person, especially a trained religious person (Priest, Pastor, etc.). Therefore, while I think confession is a beautiful institution that the Catholic church offers and if I were a Catholic, I would probably, from time-to-time, take advantage of it, I do not believe one MUST confess their sins in this manner.
I am sure you and I disagree but that is okay.
FWIW, my church has Bibles. We are a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. They have been encouraging people to bring their own so they can write in them but people are slow to change.
I usually have mine because I’m also in a Bible Study. I guess some people figure why bring one when they have them there and, besides, they always have the scriptures up on the projection or in the bulletin too.
That must be great for Catholics.
It tells me that people were uninterested in being burned at the stake or traumatized in other ways for a millennium and a half.
***FWIW, my church has Bibles.***
In the pews?
Every Catholic Church has bibles in the reception area or at the back of the church, but not usually in the pews.
In the pews! Also, we have two services going on simultaneously - one in the traditional sanctuary and that is where the pews are situated. The other service is held in our activity center since it holds a much larger number of people. The seats are chairs we put up and take down. Bibles are in portable racks and you grab one as you walk in, along with the bulletin which greeters will hand you.
I happen to attend an awesome church that goes against the grain. The Synod has spent a lot of time studying us because of our growth.
Thanks for asking!
***In the pews! Also, we have two services going on simultaneously - one in the traditional sanctuary and that is where the pews are situated. The other service is held in our activity center since it holds a much larger number of people. The seats are chairs we put up and take down. Bibles are in portable racks and you grab one as you walk in, along with the bulletin which greeters will hand you.***
Commendable. LCMS folks are often more Catholic than Catholics for much of the faith. The only thing with Bibles in the pews is that it might take away from the liturgy. Otherwise, you guys are right on.
***I happen to attend an awesome church that goes against the grain. The Synod has spent a lot of time studying us because of our growth.***
Unfortunately (because we are so close), the LCMS is losing numbers at an even greater rate than ELCA. If you can turn the tide, that’d be good; I’m not sure that you can.
Frankly, I am sad that many of the older traditional denoms are losing people; not just the LCMS but the Roman Catholic churches as well. Locally, they are closing up several RC churches for lack of money, people, AND priests.
I have no quarrel with many, many non-denom churches, but one of the excellent points the Catholics on here often make is the host of off-the-wall “so-called” Christian churches that pop up constantly. Good example of this is the One-ness Pentecostals (and they aren’t even new).
I am not surprised, incidentally, that the ELCA is losing membership, primarily because they are so liberal.
***Frankly, I am sad that many of the older traditional denoms are losing people; not just the LCMS but the Roman Catholic churches as well. Locally, they are closing up several RC churches for lack of money, people, AND priests.***
Overall, Catholic churches are growing; they tend to respond by adding Masses. I grew up in a parish with 3 priests. We had Masses on Saturday at 4:30 and 6:30 and on Sunday at 7:00, 8:30, 10:00, 11:30 and 5:00. As well as each weekday at 7:00 and 5:00.
I think that we are just reverting back to those schedules.
Maybe where you live, but here this is not so. They are closing churches and many of them too.
I’m a Catholic, Boo. What would you like to say to me?
I live in the United States, diocese of Davenport.
Where, generally speaking, do you hang out?
Cleveland, Ohio is the metropolis. I live in a burb that is some 30 miles Southwest.
Odd. There are nearly a million Catholics in that diocese, if I remember correctly. There has been some consolidation, certainly, but I am not aware of a loss of Catholics there.
There has been a net gain of Catholics in the last 20 years - significantly so - and only some of those are immigrants.
bump
Okay, I see what you are saying. You are simply stating that there may be LESS churches but the # of Catholics is staying the same. However, either that is a faulty belief or Catholics just don’t give any money.
There are several churches consolidated in numerous cities. The primary reason is funding. If there were so many Catholics, why would money be an issue?
Just my two cents.
And you are right about the Diocese here. This is a VERY Catholic town. And very Democratic too.
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