The Universe

Myself | 05/29/08 | Richard Jr.

[tricky_k_1972]

Looking up to the stars tonight, though the clouds and admiring the Creators work, the Great Engineer, the Creator of all the universe, I can't help but admire his creation and all that it implies.

He gave us such a large playground, and if our scientists have interpreted his works correctly, an ever expanding playground.

How can we not work to discover his works, his Creation, and how can we not "Read" and "Study" his works in the vast "Teaching" we call his creation, his universe.

"Be as smart and cunning as the serpent", he has called us to be.

I am in utter awe of His vastness.

I feel sorrow and pity for those whom wish to limit the Creators power to this lonely and small part of the universe he created.

To think that he created all of this simply for us to gaze upon and not explore, to not question, to simply live and die (granted with a place in the Heavens) and not discover his achievements, is a sin and perhaps one of the greatest sins, the sin of ignorance of GOD.

Did he create all of this, the entire universe, for us to remain ignorant of his teachings, for us to ignore his written word in the engineering of the world and universe around us.

I love my God and my Creator in full, and therefore I must work to explore and understand his word in the creation around us.

To not do so is to ignore the word of God.

[MHGinTN]

I’m still gonna pray for you ... be prepared.

[TXnMA]

"Ah, but the problem comes in when Creation is interpreted by a Christian so that in conforms to a preconceived idea who's origin(The idea's origin) is atheistic in nature."

What I was(and am) talking about is when a Christian buys into an idea that is not only not biblical, but actually contradicts the bible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since you are fond of pinging the Religion Moderator on such issues, should we accept that you really meant to follow those with, "Present company excluded, of course"?

Likewise, you meant to include a non-accusatory "the Bible -- as I interpret it" at the end -- right? :-)

[Fichori]

Feel free to ping the RM if you feel so inclined.

Wrong, I do not interpret the bible to agree with what I believe.

May I suggest that you learn some basic Hebrew and make a study of Genesis and Exodus.

[TXnMA]

You and I agree on avoiding using the “Bible as talisman, etc.” bit. In fact, I even try to be careful not to put a “magical” or “incantation” spin on invoking the Name...

[MHGinTN]

Your condescension is not becoming ... arrogance is an insidious sin.

[tricky_k_1972]

TXnMA:Likewise, you meant to include a non-accusatory "the Bible -- as I interpret it" at the end -- right? :-)

Fichori:Wrong, I do not interpret the bible to agree with what I believe.

And see that is where the problem lies (in both senses), you are both right and you are both wrong (and yes I mean you too Fichori).

The problem lies at the doorstep of either side failing to admit fallibility, that thy are human and fallen from grace you both interpret through a filter of fallibility (although I think you at realize it TXnMA).

YOU ARE NOT INFALIABLE AND NEITHER IS YOUR INTERPRITATIONS. YOU ARE NOT GOD

The Bible IS NOT GOD, it is HIS WORD, as the UNIVERSE is His WORD. HE WROTE BOTH. To hold up the Bible and say science is wrong is blasphemy, to hold up science and say that the bible is wrong is blasphemy, he WROTE BOTH BOOKS.

You are not GOD you do not get to dictate to his children, his flock whom you are all supposed to be lifting up, and call his works LIES.

(ok backing off my pulpit and calming down, man I HATE This)

[reagan_fanatic]

That has to be one of the most beautiful and wonderous pictures I’ve ever seen.

Kind of makes you think, doesn’t it?

[tricky_k_1972]

It still absolutely amazes me me that we as Christians fought a war amongst ourselves, killing thousands of fellow Christians to gain the right to read and interpret the Bible away fro the Catholic Church and yet still we have those among us whom absolutely insist that theirs is the only interpretation that counts and it seems to most heavily reside amongst Protestants.

Absolutely amazing.

And don't you science types think I'm letting you off the hook, you also to often have this problem.

It's like children bickering over toys that ultimately signify nothing.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your views and thank you for the links!

But truly, anti-God agendas are doomed. Even a nation can burn every scrap of Bible its citizens possess, tear down all their churches, send all the children through decades of anti-God, anti-Christ propaganda, and outlaw faith by decree after decree. And it will not stop the Gospel of Jesus Christ. China and Russia tried and failed.

No one can thwart the will of God.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. – Matthew 3:7

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. – Luke 19:40

God laughs at them for trying.

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying], Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. – Psalms 2:1-5

You said:

What I was(and am) talking about is when a Christian buys into an idea that is not only not biblical, but actually contradicts the bible.

A Christian follows Christ not men. He’s not going to buy into anti-God beliefs.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. – Romans 8:1

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

To God be the glory!

[Fichori]

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew 13:3-8

[Explanation of the parable in Matthew 13:18]

It is my endeavor to weed, water, dig stones and shoot birds.

[hosepipe]

Which is only my point.. We agree..

[hosepipe]

[p It still absolutely amazes me me that we as Christians fought a war amongst ourselves ]

What is a christian?..

[Fichori]

Tricky:

Your not going to need your tin foil hat, so you can remove it.

"The Bible IS NOT GOD, it is HIS WORD, as the UNIVERSE is His WORD. HE WROTE BOTH. To hold up the Bible and say science is wrong is blasphemy, to hold up science and say that the bible is wrong is blasphemy, he WROTE BOTH BOOKS." [excerpt, bold emphasis mine]

I think we need to have a look at what science really is.

Science has an essential dual meaning at its heart, with which the first meaning can be seen to logically compliment the second and vice-versa. On one hand it is the name given to the methods used for gaining objective knowledge about the natural world, as well as a word used to refer to the organized body of knowledge gained through these methods.[1]

So in essence, science is a collection of methods and knowledge.

Scientific knowledge is acquired though the application of scientific methods in the study of objects of phenomena.
Scientific methods were invented by philosophers.

Suggested reading: Chapter 1: What Is Science?

Being a creation of man, Scientific methodologies and knowledge are fallible.
Scientific methodologies and knowledge are NOT the Inspired and Infallible Word of God.

If some Atheist finds some bones, and using an Atheistic methodology, 'proves' the bones to be the bones or Christ, then anyone who does not believe the Bible takes precedent over EVERYTHING ELSE is in trouble.

While they have yet to claim scientific proof of Christs bones, they have claimed that God did not Create man.

In public school and college classrooms students are taught as scientific fact that man and all the animals evolved from a common ancestor.
This directly contradicts the Bible and should be discarded carte blanche.

No word, written or otherwise, supersedes the Word of God.

Ever!

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:8

What is written in the Bible is final.


To me, equating the fallible creation of man that we call science to the Inspired Word of God, is blasphemy.


Tricky, I have given you the benefit of the doubt and I hold no grudge.
If you disagree with me, explain how and why, but don't bring a railing accusation.

It will considerably reduce your need for a tin foil hat.

[Fichori]

"What is a christian?.."

I know you didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer.

A Christian is someone who has accepted and placed their trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Christianity is not a religion, but a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Eternal life through Jesus Christ is a gift that one needs only to accept: it cannot be earned.

[TXnMA]

"(ok backing off my pulpit and calming down, man I HATE This) "

Amen! So do I!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

tricky_k_1972: Thank you for "stepping in" and helping us see that we need to get your thread back on the celebratory, worshipful track on which you started it! :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Toward that end, I'd like to share with everyone my "daily online devotional routine" -- which starts right here on FR and also includes pictures of God's marvelous universe -- like the one tricky_k_1972 used to start this thread:

1. I start right here on FR with a visit to "Daily Reflections with Oswald Chambers -- "meat" from the Word fed to us by one the great Bible expositors -- and provided to FReepers daily by Vision. ( I definitely recommend that Christian FReepers contact Vision via FReepmail to get on the daily feed list for selections from Chambers' "My Utmost for His Highest"!)

2. Then -- I make a a visit to "APOD" --NASA's Astronomy Picture of the Day at http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html, my favorite source of Hubble (and other) pictures like the one tricky_k_1972 used to start this thread.

3. At this point, I am usually launched off into a deeper study of His (written) Word, or I am in a spontaneous private, praise and prayer session -- rejoicing in the majesty of His Created "Word"... :-)

4. But, sometimes, the day's "APOD" (like today's APOD) leaves me hungering for more of the beauty of His Creation, so I go the -- the "APOD Archives" at http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html -- and look and rejoice -- and worship our Creator until my soul is filled! '-)

(More to follow...)

[Fichori]

[TXnMA]

His beautiful handiwork is, indeed, there for us to see -- everywhere - if we will only open our eyes and give Him the glory!

(OTOH -- Not to be irreverent, but I wouldn't want to try climbing those trees. Look at the pretty, three-leaved vine that is growing on them...)

'-}

[Fichori]

Those are actually just maple trees covered with moss and ferns.
(With possibly some ivy.)

Non of it is poisonous and the trees are fully claimable. ;)

(Well, the ground is actually cover with stinging nettles, but they are mostly just annoying.)

[Alamo-Girl]

It is my endeavor to weed, water, dig stones and shoot birds.

LOLOL!

But of a truth, you cannot give people "ears to hear." It is a gift of God.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. - John 6:65

In my view, the "age of the universe" debates – e.g. young earth creationism v old earth creationism v. anti-creationism – should be kept in the domain of theology. Or if the debate attempts to engage science as well, it should be wide-ranging to include various theologies and disciplines of science and math.

For instance, there can be no scientific rebuttal to last Thursdayism. If a Christian believes that God created “all that there is” last Thursday or 6000 years ago, there is no scientific rebuttal to that claim. It is a statement of faith. And certainly we Christians believe in even more astonishing miracles than that – that God Himself became enfleshed to die a humiliating death for our sins, that He is resurrected and will come again. That while He was enfleshed, He raised the dead, walked on water, healed the sick, made the blind see, etc. And so on.

So, in my view, no Christian should feel that he must “justify” his belief in the miracle of Creation whatever his belief might be - or other such things, e.g. the life span of the patriarchs, the Noah flood, Jonah and the whale, etc. If physical evidence could destroy his faith, he is only a Christian wannabe. Or to put it another way, every Christian has been born again. The Spirit indwells Him. He knows Jesus personally or he is not His.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

Or to put it yet another way, a Christian could not deny Christ or be made to doubt Him because he really knows Him in a very personal way.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

On the other hand, weeding can be fun! And the scientists and mathematicians can be engaged by their own rules. So if the Christian says that “all that there is” is an illusion, there are a few scientific theories that would support his contention, but not in a theological context of course. That he would have to supply.

Likewise the Christian will find support in Information Theory (mathematics) and Molecular Biology to advocate a non-material difference between life v non-life/death in nature. Again, he must supply the theological context. And so on.

Still, it has been my experience in the “great crevo debates” that most atheists narrow in on the Young Earth Creationists brandishing “age of the universe” science as their weapon of choice. Perhaps they think the YEC crowd is an easy target in light of astronomy and the historical sciences (archeology, anthropology, geology, etc.)

I rarely engage in those debates anymore because personally, I find both sides unwilling to consider Biblical prophesy, Inflationary Theory and Relativity.

At bottom, time is geometric. It had a beginning. Space/time is warped. To argue to the contrary is to pit oneself against the cosmic microwave background radiation measurements since the 1960’s – and against Einstein’s theories of relativity.

In other words, due to the warped fabric of space/time, while a week passes in the vicinity of a black hole, simultaneously on earth 40 years may elapse.

And if you were to travel through space at the speed of one earth’s gravity (equivalence principle) – while 25.3 years elapsed on your voyage, 5x10¹⁰ years would elapse on earth.

Conversely, Scriptures are Spiritual. The words of God are spirit and life. They are not merely language symbols recorded on papyri or spoken.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:60-63

Therefore, when I do engage in the debate, I submit that we ought to consider the big picture. Look at Genesis as written from the perspective of the beginning - of the Creation of both spiritual and physical, of heaven and earth - and the time of Adamic men beginning at the moment he was banished to mortality (Genesis 3:24)

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. – Genesis 2:17

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. – Genesis 5:5

See the difference? A Scriptural “day” is a physical “1000 years” at our space/time coordinates.

That, I submit, is the meaning behind these passages:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. – Psalms 90:4

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Peter 3:8

I also submit that the number of days built into Creation week are directly tied to Biblical prophesy. Namely, that Adamic man has been allotted 6 days – or 6,000 years. The seventh day is the Sabbath, the 1,000 years Christ will reign on earth fulfilling the Jewish prophesy of an earthy Messiah ruling Israel at peace with its neighbors.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. – Mark 2:27-28

All of this is in fulfillment of the prophesy in the Song of Moses, the promises to the Jews as well as the Christians - the two folds in John 10, Romans 11 and Revelation et al.

Of course those who do not believe that God keeps all of His promises would disagree with me, but that is beside the point. (And they should read again Jeremiah 31:33-37, btw.)

Mine is not a new belief but an ancient one as we can see here in the Epistle of Barnabas (not to be confused with the Gospel of Barnabas, a late sixteenth century pro-Islam fraud.) The epistle is thought to be written in the first few centuries after the Resurrection of Jesus – and is helpful here because it says the same thing in the words of the day. It is an ancient belief:

Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it. Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years.

Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end. And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day. .

Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone utterly astray. But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.

Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.

Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens. - chapter 15:3-9

Further, I submit – agreeing here with Jewish Physicist Gerald Schroeder - that when we apply General Relativity and Inflationary Theory, six equivalent earth days at the inception space/time coordinates of this universe is roughly equal to fifteen billion earth years from our space/time coordinates. From his article:

The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step. Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets exponentially longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.

(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)

The calculations come out to be as follows:

• The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.
• The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.
• The third day also lasted half of the previous day, 2 billion years.
• The fourth day - one billion years.
• The fifth day - one-half billion years.
• The sixth day - one-quarter billion years.

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.

In sum, I see no conflict at all between God’s revelations in Scripture and in Creation. The Scriptures are literal in describing Creation Week – but not from the perspective of man – rather, from the perspective of the Creator, the only Observer and Author of Scripture.

And I realize that YEC Christians would strongly disagree and insist on man-as-the-observer based literal reading of Creation Week. And I also realize that many YEC Christians – and many atheists by the way – insist on an infinite past.

The atheists’ theories require infinity past for the plentitude argument – anything that can happen, did. Also, as Jastrow pointed out, that there was a beginning of space and time is the most theological statement ever to come out of modern science. In the absence of space, things cannot exist. In the absence of time, events cannot occur. Physical causation requires both space and time. So a beginning of space and time and therefore causation itself requires a Creator, God.

Nevertheless and no matter how one reads Creation week and Biblical prophesy and whether or not he chooses to consider Relativity and Inflationary Theory …

To God be the glory!

Have fun weeding, Fichori!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights and testimony, dear brother in Christ!