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Mary's grace is derived from Jesus. She was deemed immaculate upon the very presence of Jesus, conceived of the Holy Spirit (hence the Assumption, wherein she was pulled body and spirit into Heaven upon her physical death). A great deal is made of her faith and obedience to God and carrying out His Will (special notes are paid to how she, as a woman obeying God, undoes the knot of disobedience that Eve, another woman who disobeyed, brought forth). It is by her connection to Jesus Christ, born of the Holy Spirit, that she is venerated within the Catholic Church.

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So the Church's official teaching on the matter does not equate Mary with Jesus, nor gives her the same power that only He possesses. Only that her special nature as the Mother of God the Son Jesus Christ, our Creator born as man, enables her to have an important duty within the Church. To make a metaphor...Jesus is the straight and narrow road between man and God. Mary, to those who desire her aid, would be a lamppost to help light the way.

Spoken like a true Catholic Apologist. It's time to stop the pretense of openmindedness.

You are a Catholic through and through. May God be with you on your journey.

Spoken like a true Catholic Apologist.

I was just repeating what I'd read from the Catechism, aka Catholic teaching. As most Catholics on this thread have asserted that there is a difference between the actions of people and what the Church teaches as doctrine, I stated what was said in the Catechism with that in mind. Because it was at a point where we had a back-and-forth series of 'Mary is X/Mary is not X, but Y' and whatnot (though we still have it going on now, but oh well).

It's time to stop the pretense of openmindedness.

If that were the case, why would I even bother posting? I'd just be nodding my head along with everything said about Mary by the Catholic Freepers, not even bothering to consider any accusations by the others (and there are some valid ones, have no doubt about that).

Right beneath the part you quoted, I said the following:

I will not deny though, reading through a number of the threads, that some take the idea of Mary's role in the Church WAY too far, overstating her position and ascribing to her properties that she does not have (Jesus "receiving an immaculate nature from a truly immaculate mother."? Really now.) Then again, as has been said a number of times by Catholics on this thread; the words of priests, followers do not equate to Catholic teaching. The Pope's words, when not proclaiming official Doctrine via an ex cathedra statement, do not equal Catholic teaching.

That's the basic gist of what I'm reading so far.

I recognize that a lot of people go too far with the role of Mary. And there are some questions to consider; given that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", how can one reconcile that with the Catechism doctrine proclaiming that Mary was born free of original sin (which, in my mind, is somewhat different from a normal sin, is it not? Original sin is our sinful state, where we are susceptible to the temptation of vice and evil...somewhat different from the actual act of sinning, isn't it?)? There are valid questions involved.

Which is why this thread is here, for one. I'm certainly enjoying the exchange (despite the textual blisters from a harsh barb or two). And best of all, I'm learning.

You are a Catholic through and through.

If I were, I wouldn't have posted this thread.

May God be with you on your journey.

And also with you.