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To: MarkBsnr; Quix
Your exclusionary rationalization of John 15:16 fits with the cloistered, arrogant exclusivity of the Roman priesthood made up of "another Christ."

Instead, the priesthood of all believers is the truth of the Bible whereby all believing Christians make up the church of Christ on earth, chosen by God for His glory. Christ instructed His followers to make disciples throughout the world, and those disciples are included among those He is addressing here.

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." -- John 15:6-8

This is the rule of faith for all Christ's disciples, not just the apostles. Yes, Christ was speaking directly to His apostles, and in so doing, speaks to all those who believe in Him, as John 17 further explains. Just as He chose His Apostles, so He chooses us, as Paul reminds us...

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love -- Ephesians 1:4

Was Paul contradicting Christ, or following Christ in Ephesians 1?

I find it amazing how Rome restricts the majority of Christ's ministry to 11 men, thereby denying His very personal ministry to all believers. Keep reading John, Mark. As you say, context is important...

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." -- John 17:9-10,20-23

Is Christ not speaking of you here, too, Mark?

5,260 posted on 06/12/2008 8:04:11 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Good points.


5,262 posted on 06/12/2008 8:40:42 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***Your exclusionary rationalization of John 15:16 fits with the cloistered, arrogant exclusivity of the Roman priesthood made up of “another Christ.”***

Not mine. The Church teaches it with the faith that has withstood all challenges for 2000 years.

John 13 through 17 has Jesus alone in a room with his disciples. He is speaking to them. Period. There were not loudspeakers or microphones or cell phones in those days.

Let us then, in context, examine the verse.

***If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.***

To the disciples ABOUT men in general.

***If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples***

To the disciples ABOUT them.

***I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.***

To the Father ABOUT the disciples.

***Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.***

To the Father ABOUT the world.

And so on.

Jesus chose individuals to fulfill the offices of the Church. All Christians are exhorted to act Christian, yet not all are called to be Apostles and Church leaders.

***I find it amazing how Rome restricts the majority of Christ’s ministry to 11 men, thereby denying His very personal ministry to all believers.***

I don’t think that I’m called to fulfill a Church office; I believe that my calling is as a husband and father. I am still a Christian and must fulfill my Christian duties; yet not all are called to be missionaries or teachers or priests or deacons or bishops. We serve God in other ways. Everyone is called to do something; yet not all fulfill Church offices.


5,321 posted on 06/13/2008 6:43:43 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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