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To: Petronski; enat; Marysecretary; Quix; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; irishtenor; 1000 silverlings; ...
Welcome to FR to enat who signed up June 5 and has asked this excellent question...

What do you believe is your basis for ultimate truth and how do you know it is trustworthy?

Good question, to which Petronski offered the following answer...

PETRONSKI: "The Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church"

Petronski, you put the RCC catechism on the same footing as the Holy Scriptures.

Would that be Bellarmine's Short Catechism of 1597; the Baltimore Cathechism of 1885; the rewritten catechism of 1992; or the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in 2005?

I can understand Rome's needing to add to the words of God because so often what Rome teaches contradicts the word of God (i.e. regarding priests as "another Christ;" Mary as "co-redeemer;" prayers to dead people; and investing relics with supernatural powers, etc.)

But thankfully, Bible-believing Christians are not so easily fooled.

According to the Bible, the Scriptures are self-authenticating by the Holy Spirit who gives us new eyes by which to read the Bible and who renews our minds to enable us to understand the words of God and know that our salvation is by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -- 2 Timothy 3:14-17

However, as the RCC catechism proudly states, it is built on tradition as well as Scripture. (See the RCC catechism #80-82, 85, 97, 182.)

Yet when Christ was asked a question, He would invariably begin His answer with "As the Scriptures saith..." Therefore, Christ bore witness that the Scriptures were the rule of faith.

Further, Christ never spoke about "tradition" in a postitve sense. Whenever He referred to "tradition" it was to denounce it.

"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition...

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." -- Mark 7:9;13

As the Westminster Confession of Faith attests (Scriptural proofs found at the site. I'm including them since now I know how partial some are to them)...

Chapter I
Of the Holy Scripture

I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;[1] yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.[2] Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church;[3] and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing;[4] which makes the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;[5] those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]

II. Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testament, which are these: Of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, I Chronicles, II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, The Song of Songs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi. Of the New Testament: The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, The Acts of the Apostles, Paul's Epistles to the Romans, Corinthians I, Corinthians II, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians I , Thessalonians II , To Timothy I , To Timothy II, To Titus, To Philemon, The Epistle to the Hebrews, The Epistle of James, The first and second Epistles of Peter, The first, second, and third Epistles of John, The Epistle of Jude, The Revelation of John. All which are given by inspiration of God to be the rule of faith and life.[7]

III. The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon of the Scripture, and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.[8]

IV. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.[9]

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture.[10] And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.[11]

VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.[14]

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all:[15] yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.[16]

VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical;[17] so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them.[18] But, because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them,[19] therefore they are to be translated in to the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come,[20] that, the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner;[21] and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.[22]

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.[23]

X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.[24]

The difference between the RCC catechism and the WCF is that the RCC catechism is built on Scripture AND tradition, while the WCF is founded only upon Scripture. Further, a Catholic is REQUIRED to believe the RCC catechism while NO Protestant is REQUIRED to believe the WCF. The Protestant is only required to believe God's word, by His grace, for His glory and the welfare of His family.

3,733 posted on 06/07/2008 11:50:53 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you oh so very much for sharing your insights and especially those beautiful Scriptures, dear sister in Christ!


3,735 posted on 06/07/2008 11:58:53 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Petronski, you put the RCC catechism on the same footing as the Holy Scriptures.

Nope.

I put the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the same footing as an accurate translation of Holy Scriptures.

I don't know what an "RCC catechism" is.

3,736 posted on 06/07/2008 12:03:58 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Would that be Bellarmine's Short Catechism of 1597; the Baltimore Cathechism of 1885; the rewritten catechism of 1992; or the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in 2005?

It is just what I said it is: the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here's a link. It's a very beautiful book about Jesus Christ and the countless gifts He showers upon us through the Church He founded: the Catholic Church.

3,738 posted on 06/07/2008 12:06:42 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I can understand Rome's needing to add to the words of God because so often what Rome teaches contradicts the word of God (i.e. regarding priests as "another Christ;" Mary as "co-redeemer;" prayers to dead people; and investing relics with supernatural powers, etc.)

No contradiction. You have been misled into Scriptural error, your Bible redacted by prideful men.

3,739 posted on 06/07/2008 12:08:25 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
According to the Bible, the Scriptures are self-authenticating by the Holy Spirit who gives us new eyes by which to read the Bible and who renews our minds to enable us to understand the words of God and know that our salvation is by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

According to the misguided traditions of flawed men, you mean. None of that is Biblical. 2 Timothy 3:14-17 doesn't say that, nor does any of the rest of of Scripture. It is manufactured.

3,741 posted on 06/07/2008 12:10:53 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

[snipped out gobs of turgid prose from the Westminster Confession of Faith, so-called]

I’ll stick with the Church founded by Christ in AD 32, thank you very much. I can have your storefront plastic banana happy joy splinter group (70 years running) or the Catholic Church, founded by Christ with Peter and his successors as Pope (1970+ years running).

Easiest choice I can imagine.


3,743 posted on 06/07/2008 12:14:04 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
...while the WCF is founded only upon Scripture.

ROFLMAO! Oh, my sides.

Whew! Tell me another one.

...while NO Protestant is REQUIRED to believe the WCF.

LOL   Good bit of luck there, eh?

3,744 posted on 06/07/2008 12:15:49 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; enat
According to the Bible, the Scriptures are self-authenticating by the Holy Spirit who gives us new eyes by which to read the Bible and who renews our minds to enable us to understand the words of God and know that our salvation is by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

Amen, Amen, Amen!

enat welcome to FR. I look forward to reading your posts.

3,750 posted on 06/07/2008 12:31:51 PM PDT by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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