Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: thefrankbaum

I think I see your perspective, I just don’t agree with it. I am already on somewhat shaky ground believing a man’s spirit is in heaven already, but I see no evidence in Scripture that I can communicate with these spirits, that they can hear or see what is happening here on earth, or that I should attempt to use them as intermediaries.

I realise that we have a foundational difference in that I am limiting myself to scripture while you have the Church traditions and teachings. But it seems to me that something as basic and important as enlisting the souls of those who have passed on to work on our behalf would have merited at least a passing mention by Jesus when teaching us to pray, or by Paul in instructing the early Church.

If I were to accept the concept of the Church adding to our knowlege of the faith, it would be as legislatures flesh out the constitution — the basic tenets would be in Scripture, and the Church would add to that specific guidance, guidelines, acts, and punishments.

I do in fact believe that the Church, that those whom God has appointed as Pastors and teachers, do have the task of amplifying the basic message of scripture.

But I cannot believe that on basic doctrinal issues, God would have been silent in his Word, and Jesus would have been silent in his direction, but instead counted on post-biblical revelation by the Church.


180 posted on 05/30/2008 2:39:50 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies ]


To: CharlesWayneCT
I am already on somewhat shaky ground believing a man’s spirit is in heaven already, but I see no evidence in Scripture that I can communicate with these spirits, that they can hear or see what is happening here on earth, or that I should attempt to use them as intermediaries.

I guess I wonder what you believe concerning Angels. Do you believe we can communicate with them? That is why I was pointing towards the Psalmist. The faithful Angels remained in Heaven after Satan's rebellion - it was these Angels that David was addressing. I see the "denizens" of Heaven all having the same vantagepoint over us - whether they are Saints or Angels, or any other Creation He has made.

But it seems to me that something as basic and important as enlisting the souls of those who have passed on to work on our behalf would have merited at least a passing mention by Jesus when teaching us to pray, or by Paul in instructing the early Church.

Taking these in stride - first, the gates of Heaven were closed prior to Jesus' death. That is why the righteous dead were awaiting Him. Thus, there wasn't really anyone to pray to in Heaven when He was conducting His ministry. (I'm leaving Elijah out of this)

Further, the reason we pray to Saints is to ask them to help us bring our petitions to God. Now, Jesus is the only way we have to God, but He is God Himself. Thus, the Saints in Heaven bring our petitions to Jesus. The petition has many different routes TO God (the prayers of many), but they all go THROUGH Jesus. Even if there were Saints in Heaven, why would Jesus ask them something only to have them return it to him?

Lastly, I think Paul does mention it - so much of his letters are talking about how Christ conquered Death, and that those who fall asleep in Him are granted Eternal Life. And James 5:16 demonstrates the power of the righteous man's prayer - who is more righteous than those who are alive in Christ? I realize you may not see it, and I'd quote Tobit to show the ability of those in Heaven to bring our petitions to God, but I'm not sure you recognize it as canonical.

But I cannot believe that on basic doctrinal issues, God would have been silent in his Word, and Jesus would have been silent in his direction, but instead counted on post-biblical revelation by the Church.

I appreciate your recognition that organization is necessary to expounding proper teachings - so many people seem to fight even that basic principle. But, I have a few comments on this statement. First, like I've tried to show, the Bible isn't silent on such issues - it may not be explicit, but it is there. Second, you and I define "His Word" in two different ways as you pointed out - you believe His Word is the Bible, while I believe His Oral and Written Words have the same authority. Again, all the Ancient Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, and Assyrian) venerate Saints - it is a new development not to. Third, the Church teaches public revelation ended with the Apostles. For revelation, His Word is all we're getting til the end in regards. Again, it is all how you define "His Word."

182 posted on 05/30/2008 3:36:56 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 180 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson