This is TOTALLY FALSE. The Black Death first hit Europe in Italy in 1347, it then spread across Europe over a period of about two years. Then there were recurrences about every ten years for the next century.
I will accept your two year scenario, though opinions vary (1-5 years), but I will stand firmly upon the 25m figure as being a fully reasonable number. It was not my intention to describe the entirety of the black plague, but only the "Great Mortality" portion, the first instance thereof upon Europe. I am fully aware that it reoccurred, in fact, all the way into, and through, the 1800's.
But you miss my point. I purposfully used two examples (the plague and large death tolls from battles) to show that historical populations were very capable, and not the light, aggrarian populations historical revisionists favor. For some reason, thereafter you limit your reply to the black plague and to the 14th century. We were speaking of roughly 500AD-1800AD, and that is what I was referring to.
[Something very profound lowered the population and prosperity of Medieval Europe (and only Medieval Europe) in a particular and sustained fashion. I would submit that the force responsible for that was in fact the iron fist of the Holy Roman Empire-]
Your grasp of history is quite flawed. For not only did the Black Death hit Europe in the 14th Century, it came on the tail of a continent-wide famine which had also wreaked havoc. On top of this, the entire century was also consumed by the Hundred Years War which was a NON-RELIGIOUS war between England and France.
Actually, it was not so much a famine as it was a matter of overpopulation, and it is not really the damage that is the indicator, but the recovery time- This wikipedia article on the Black Death touches on what I mean:
Europe had been overpopulated before the plague, and a reduction of 30% to 50% of the population could have resulted in higher wages and more available land and food for peasants because of less competition for resources. However, for reasons that are still debated, population levels declined after the Black Death's first outbreak until around 1420 and did not begin to rise again until 1470, so the initial Black Death event on its own does not entirely provide a satisfactory explanation to this extended period of decline in prosperity. See Medieval demography for a more complete treatment of this issue and current theories on why improvements in living standards took longer to evolve.
In fact, many of the midwives after the black death were tried as witches for prescribing birth control methods... Both the state and the Church being interested in boosting population to resume the filling of their coffers.
Additionally, the Holy Roman Empire was no more a Catholic state than, Spain, France or England. It WAS NOT under the control of the Church in any more than a nominal sense and it ONLY comprised central Europe.
The Pope owned Europe from 500AD to 1800AD... It is my mistake to refer to that time as the Holy Roman Empire to differentiate it from the time prior, when the emperors owned Europe. I more properly should have said the "Western Roman Empire". As to the Holy Roman Empire proper, don't look at me, it was your Pope that crowned them to give them claim. That is at least an endorsement.
[And it isn't even the major events that I would point to- Consider this, If you would: Without any crusade or inquisition, to reach a death toll of 100m across 1260 yrs requires under 8,000 deaths a year in the whole of Europe- A number easy to surpass in a morality based system founded in fear and avarice, especially when one considers the bare fact that a sentence of mere imprisonment nearly guaranteed a death by starvation or disease (not considered in the death tolls btw).]
What you fail to recognize is that your entire thesis is predicated upon a theory of something that NEVER HAPPENED.
What precisely are you claiming "never happened"?
The population of Europe was incrementally rising (sometimes rising moreso than others) through history. It plummetted during the 14th Century due to factors listed above. It stabilized in the late 15th and early 16th Centuries and has been rising ever since. Population increases are nearly always economic, as Europe moved away from the feudal system and the middle class grew, the population followed.
Nonetheless, Europe lagged in standard of living and population (recovery) compared to where it could, and should have been- Look at America in the same light- from 1776 to 1876, a mere century, plagued with war with Britain, France, and indians, still America prospered and grew exponentially to populate the eastern seaboard, the inland eastern half of the United States, and a pretty good stab at the West. Now, I will grant you, a large portion of those coming to popuate America, even in the 1500's and 1600's found reason to flee the wonderful economy and religious conditions you describe, but still...
One thing you seem to conveniently overlook is the FACT that THERE WAS NO RELIGIOUS TURMOIL to speak of in Europe (the Great Schism really didn't affect most of Europe) prior to the Reformation. Hus and Wycliffe were ISOLATED events. There was no TV or internet, the average person had no idea they were even happening. The simple fact is that the average person in Europe prior to the 16th Century had no qualms with the Church whatsoever.
Sooo... You would deny the slaughter of the Cathars? What of the Arians? Yes the Heruli, Visigoths, and Ostrogoths were destroyed just prior to this timeframe (so I can't count them), but Arianism was a problem well into the 8th century. What of the Pelagian heresy among the Celts (and Brittany, and parts of coastal France)? And certainly, what of the Jews, many of whom were slaughtered during the Black Plague, accused of poisoning wells... What of the "evangelizing" of the Anglo-Saxons, the Picts, and other Pagan tribes... and not to forget the mighty Vikings. What of the persecution of witches? I know everyone loves to make that a Protestant thing, but it isn't Catholics invented it, and the persecution of witches was far more prevalent in continental Europe than in England or America.
And you never answered my question... Why wold one discount Llorente's numbers regarding the Spanish Inquisition, and if they are not true, where are all of the Spanish Jews from the Iberian Penninsula? Where did they go?
[I would hold the RCC to task for much in WWII.]
The greatest tragedy the Church faced during WWII was the fact that so much of Germany was Lutheran and their were't enough Christians with true convictions there (the Lutheran minister Dietrich Bonhoeffer being a MAJOR exception) to stand up to evil.
The RCC not only assisted evil in WWII, it participated in it, and helped it to escape.
As for your nonsense of what was done in the Americas, you might recall that the English colonists were nearly ALL Protestants and they killed the Indians and brought slavery to America.
Again, all of which the Protestants do not deny.
***The Pope owned Europe from 500AD to 1800AD***
Are you an American school graduate? Where are you getting your information? Rather silly statement.
***You would deny the slaughter of the Cathars? What of the Arians? Yes the Heruli, Visigoths, and Ostrogoths were destroyed just prior to this timeframe (so I can’t count them), but Arianism was a problem well into the 8th century. What of the Pelagian heresy among the Celts (and Brittany, and parts of coastal France)? And certainly, what of the Jews, many of whom were slaughtered during the Black Plague, accused of poisoning wells... What of the “evangelizing” of the Anglo-Saxons, the Picts, and other Pagan tribes... and not to forget the mighty Vikings.***
The statement was to the effect that the average person didn’t know much about anything more than 10 miles from his birthplace (and gravestone) and didn’t travel any further in the first millennium. How would the serf in Nottingham know anything about the Cathars?
***The RCC not only assisted evil in WWII, it participated in it, and helped it to escape. ***
Yup, all those darn evil Jews that the Church spirited out through the Vatican and through Switzerland.
Astonishingly idiotic.
The RCC not only assisted evil in WWII, it participated in it, and helped it to escape.
Filthy slander.
Your response is so devoid of fact, I’m not even going to bother to respond to it.
It’s this post that is in green, with some maroon. Dated today, July 3. M