Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
You do NOT understand what I’m trying to say here. So be it. I’m not playing your little game any longer. Bu-bye.
I can't speak for FTD but I don't think that's what he means at all. If any of us reject God's words and commandments, the words judge us, as they will show who we really are. Just as we in this life, respond to whom Jesus is, that judges us as well.
You do not KNOW anything about life after death. No one does. We believe certain things because of certain evidence, but anything more is judgemental.
Hey, all I’ve learned has been from you guys.
I understand what you are saying perfectly well. For you to state I don’t is mind-reading. Your words are quite clear.
Too many protestants would like to hint around that Catholics are going to hell, without actually saying that because they KNOW it reveals their judgemental souls. So they play their silly games, and assert that Catholics just don’t get it. We get it, all right. We know you by your fruits. And nuts.
I’m sorry that my concern for your salvation and that of other Catholics (and protestants) is anathema. Please don’t bother me any longer.
Just curious RM, is that post by Reggie “making it personal”? because if it is, I have about 50 I can call your attention to
Yes, especially when you ping him.
Let us at least admit that the Roman Catholic Church and 'Protestants'(Christians), teach two different Gospels
If they are different, then only one of us are truely saved and the other is preaching a false Gospel which is damning people to hell (2Cor.11:4)
1000s, I can read. Let me go find the one where FTD says protestants get to be judge.
No, you believe an INTERPRETATION of what the Bible says.
Your desire to give this interpretation more weight than what the Church has taught for two thousand years is meaningless.
If you were to study some history you would see how marginal Protestantism really is.
When the Eastern Church left during the Great Schism, it was based on a few theological questions. However, it was primarily a geographic change.
When the Protestant Reformation came, MOST people rejected it. It caught on in parts of what is today Germany and Scandinavian countries. It never had any strength in Italy, France, Austria, Poland, Spain or Portugal. It was FORCED on England, but that was more political and the Anglicans ignored virtually everything Calvin said.
And I will again add that even among Protestants you will not find agreement on what you claim to be "extra-biblical;" in fact, your disbelief in infant baptism puts you at odd with nearly all mainstream Protestants.
I don't believe that's correct, at all.
Scripture indicates to me that we will be judged A) by Scripture and B) by how we have judged others.
4712:
The Roman Catholic, like everyone else is going to have to reject what he has been taught and believe what the Bible says, no different than any other unbeliever does.
I much agree. I doubt that any congregation anywhere has 100% of the time taught the 100% pure, unadulterated Word of God. We’ll all have surprises on arriving at Heaven’s gate.
God is indeed long suffering, not wanting any to perish, but the route to salvation is narrow, not broad.
True. Though God’s Love is much broader than our Love.
Many Roman Catholics are hearing the true Gospel on these threads and are going to have to deal with the truth of what they have read.
True. And some Prottys may have yet to deal with hardness & bitterness of heart toward some RC’s just as some RC’s may well have to deal with hardness and bitterness of heart toward some Prottys.
That is how God's grace operates, by getting the truth to those who need to hear it and those who reject it will be judged by those words they rejected.
True. Quite true.
4710:
You receive the grace of God by faith and nothing else (Rom.4, Gal.3)
4-5If you're a hard worker and do a good job, you deserve your pay; we don't call your wages a gift. But if you see that the job is too big for you, that it's something only God can do, and you trust him to do it—you could never do it for yourself no matter how hard and long you worked—well, that trusting-him-to-do-it is what gets you set right with God, by God. Sheer gift. 6-9David confirms this way of looking at it, saying that the one who trusts God to do the putting-everything-right without insisting on having a say in it is one fortunate man: 16This is why the fulfillment of God's promise depends entirely on trusting God and his way, and then simply embracing him and what he does. God's promise arrives as pure gift. That's the only way everyone can be sure to get in on it, those who keep the religious traditions and those who have never heard of them. For Abraham is father of us all. He is not our racial father—that's reading the story backward. He is our faith father. 17-18We call Abraham "father" not because he got God's attention by living like a saint, but because God made something out of Abraham when he was a nobody. Isn't that what we've always read in Scripture, God saying to Abraham, "I set you up as father of many peoples"? Abraham was first named "father" and then became a father because he dared to trust God to do what only God could do: raise the dead to life, with a word make something out of nothing. When everything was hopeless, Abraham believed anyway, deciding to live not on the basis of what he saw he couldn't do but on what God said he would do. And so he was made father of a multitude of peoples. God himself said to him, "You're going to have a big family, Abraham!" 19-25Abraham didn't focus on his own impotence and say, "It's hopeless. This hundred-year-old body could never father a child." Nor did he survey Sarah's decades of infertility and give up. He didn't tiptoe around God's promise asking cautiously skeptical questions. He plunged into the promise and came up strong, ready for God, sure that God would make good on what he had said. That's why it is said, "Abraham was declared fit before God by trusting God to set him right." But it's not just Abraham; it's also us! The same thing gets said about us when we embrace and believe the One who brought Jesus to life when the conditions were equally hopeless. The sacrificed Jesus made us fit for God, set us right with God. Galatians 5 2-3I am emphatic about this. The moment any one of you submits to circumcision or any other rule-keeping system, at that same moment Christ's hard-won gift of freedom is squandered. I repeat my warning: The person who accepts the ways of circumcision trades all the advantages of the free life in Christ for the obligations of the slave life of the law. 4-6I suspect you would never intend this, but this is what happens. When you attempt to live by your own religious plans and projects, you are cut off from Christ, you fall out of grace. Meanwhile we expectantly wait for a satisfying relationship with the Spirit. For in Christ, neither our most conscientious religion nor disregard of religion amounts to anything. What matters is something far more interior: faith expressed in love. 7-10You were running superbly! Who cut in on you, deflecting you from the true course of obedience? This detour doesn't come from the One who called you into the race in the first place. And please don't toss this off as insignificant. It only takes a minute amount of yeast, you know, to permeate an entire loaf of bread. Deep down, the Master has given me confidence that you will not defect. But the one who is upsetting you, whoever he is, will bear the divine judgment. 11-12As for the rumor that I continue to preach the ways of circumcision (as I did in those pre-Damascus Road days), that is absurd. Why would I still be persecuted, then? If I were preaching that old message, no one would be offended if I mentioned the Cross now and then—it would be so watered-down it wouldn't matter one way or the other. Why don't these agitators, obsessive as they are about circumcision, go all the way and castrate themselves! 13-15It is absolutely clear that God has called you to a free life. Just make sure that you don't use this freedom as an excuse to do whatever you want to do and destroy your freedom. Rather, use your freedom to serve one another in love; that's how freedom grows. For everything we know about God's Word is summed up in a single sentence: Love others as you love yourself. That's an act of true freedom. If you bite and ravage each other, watch out—in no time at all you will be annihilating each other, and where will your precious freedom be then? 16-18My counsel is this: Live freely, animated and motivated by God's Spirit. Then you won't feed the compulsions of selfishness. For there is a root of sinful self-interest in us that is at odds with a free spirit, just as the free spirit is incompatible with selfishness. These two ways of life are antithetical, so that you cannot live at times one way and at times another way according to how you feel on any given day. Why don't you choose to be led by the Spirit and so escape the erratic compulsions of a law-dominated existence? 19-21It is obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness; trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits; the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community. I could go on. This isn't the first time I have warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit God's kingdom. 22-23But what happens when we live God's way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard—things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments, not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely. 23-24Legalism is helpless in bringing this about; it only gets in the way. Among those who belong to Christ, everything connected with getting our own way and mindlessly responding to what everyone else calls necessities is killed off for good—crucified. 25-26Since this is the kind of life we have chosen, the life of the Spirit, let us make sure that we do not just hold it as an idea in our heads or a sentiment in our hearts, but work out its implications in every detail of our lives. That means we will not compare ourselves with each other as if one of us were better and another worse. We have far more interesting things to do with our lives. Each of us is an original.
Trusting God
1-3 So how do we fit what we know of Abraham, our first father in the faith, into this new way of looking at things? If Abraham, by what he did for God, got God to approve him, he could certainly have taken credit for it. But the story we're given is a God-story, not an Abraham-story. What we read in Scripture is, "Abraham entered into what God was doing for him, and that was the turning point. He trusted God to set him right instead of trying to be right on his own."
whose sins are wiped clean from the slate.
Fortunate the person against
whom the Lord does not keep score.
The Life of Freedom
1 Christ has set us free to live a free life. So take your stand! Never again let anyone put a harness of slavery on you.
And James is clear that we will show our faith-walk is genuine by how we walk-out, act out, give out from that faith-walk.
Anyone that teaches otherwise is teaching a false Gospel and is accursed (Gal.1)
I DO THINK that some RC’s are overly prone to being vulnerable to this hazard. But then, so are some Prottys. 4714: 4717: Revelation 20:15 (The Message)
The Message
6-9I can't believe your fickleness—how easily you have turned traitor to him who called you by the grace of Christ by embracing a variant message! It is not a minor variation, you know; it is completely other, an alien message, a no-message, a lie about God. Those who are provoking this agitation among you are turning the Message of Christ on its head. Let me be blunt: If one of us—even if an angel from heaven!—were to preach something other than what we preached originally, let him be cursed. I said it once; I'll say it again: If anyone, regardless of reputation or credentials, preaches something other than what you received originally, let him be cursed.
If they are different, then only one of us are truely saved and the other is preaching a false Gospel which is damning people to hell (2Cor.11:4)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
4-6It seems that if someone shows up preaching quite another Jesus than we preached—different spirit, different message—you put up with him quite nicely. But if you put up with these big-shot "apostles," why can't you put up with simple me? I'm as good as they are. It's true that I don't have their voice, haven't mastered that smooth eloquence that impresses you so much. But when I do open my mouth, I at least know what I'm talking about. We haven't kept anything back. We let you in on everything
If one rejects the Gospel as given in the scriptures, he will end up at the Great White Throne Judgement and then be damned to the Lake of Fire for eternity, and that is what scripture teaches (Jn.3:36, Rev.20:15)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
34-36"The One that God sent speaks God's words. And don't think he rations out the Spirit in bits and pieces. The Father loves the Son extravagantly. He turned everything over to him so he could give it away—a lavish distribution of gifts. That is why whoever accepts and trusts the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever! And that is also why the person who avoids and distrusts the Son is in the dark and doesn't see life. All he experiences of God is darkness, and an angry darkness at that
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
Judgment
11-15I saw a Great White Throne and the One Enthroned. Nothing could stand before or against the Presence, nothing in Heaven, nothing on earth. And then I saw all the dead, great and small, standing there—before the Throne! And books were opened. Then another book was opened: the Book of Life. The dead were judged by what was written in the books, by the way they had lived. Sea released its dead, Death and Hell turned in their dead. Each man and woman was judged by the way he or she had lived. Then Death and Hell were hurled into Lake Fire. This is the second death—Lake Fire. Anyone whose name was not found inscribed in the Book of Life was hurled into Lake Fire.
God sorts us Prottys all out quite comfortably.
Perhaps trusting us to Him would be progress.
However, calling the poster "hateful" is making it personal.
For instance, if I said to you "1000 silverlings, that was a hateful thing to say" it wouldn't mean that I think you are a hateful person.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
ENTIRELY AMEN!
Thanks.
And I wouldn’t take it that way either. thanks again
Wellllllllllllllllll
there is 1600 years of irony and paradoxes . . . even satire . . . to learn from! LOL.
LOL. Tattling?
Free will is a very difficult concept to divest ourselves of. I, like most of the world, held it sacrosant for most of my life. Eventually, I came to believe like Luther...
"Furthermore, I have the comfortable certainty that I please God, not by reason of the merit of my works, but by reason of His merciful favour promised to me; so that, if I work too little, or badly, He does not impute it to me, but with fatherly compassion pardons me and makes me better. This is the glorying of all the saints in their God." -- Martin Luther, "Bondage of the Will" -- (xviii) Of the comfort of knowing that salvation does not depend on free-will' (783)"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want 'free-will' to be given me, nor anything to be left in my own hands to enable me to endeavour after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities, and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground and hold fast my 'free-will' (for one devil is stronger than all men, and on these terms no man could be saved) ; but because, even were there no dangers, adversities, or devils, I should still be forced to labour with no guarantee of success, and to beat my fists at the air. If I lived and worked to all eternity, my conscience would never reach comfortable certainty as to how much it must do to satisfy God, Whatever work I had done, there would still be a nagging doubt' as to whether it pleased God, or whether He required something more. The experience of all who seek righteousness by works proves that; and I learned it well enough myself over a period of many years, to my own great hurt. But now that God has taken my salvation out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfort¬able certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. `No one,´ He says, `shall pluck them out of my hand, because my Father which gave them me is greater than all´ (John 10.28-29). Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of ´free-will´ none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish.
I would also encourage anyone to read Van Til's great and Godly essay, WHY I BELIEVE IN GOD
Or Warfield's terrific sermon, SOME THOUGHTS ON PREDESTINATION
For our friend, Petronski, we might offer Augustine's most mature work, A TREATISE ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS
And for a comprehensive history as well as study, nothing beats Loraine (a guy) Boettner's THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION
All these works are founded securely on the Scriptures which remind us that "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD." (Proverbs 16:33.)
No one needs to embrace the concept of Predestination in order to be saved. But I've come to believe this understanding, like all good things, is just another gift from God. Read Ephesians 1...
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved... That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints" -- Ephesians 1:4-6,17-18"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
It's all about election. Who chooses whom. Even if it feels like we're the ones making the choice, it's all of and by and for God's will through Jesus Christ.
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." -- John 15:16
Reading all of this, I can’t figure out how things go sequentially. Maybe you can enlighten me.
God won’t let me go, but if I will to leave Him, He still won’t let me go? Or leaving Him, I am let go? But He doesn’t let me go? So if He doesn’t let me go, but I will to go, my will is not His will-—but still, He doesn’t let me go?
I’m not quite grasping the essential elements her.
I don’t believe infant baptism is salvific. I had all my children baptized. I was baptized as an infant, but when I received Christ as Saviour, I was baptized by immersion because His Word says to believe and be baptized. I think it’s important to be baptized after conversion, which born again folk believe.
I don’t consider myself a real protestant. I am a Christian. My church is non-denominational and Spirit-filled. We believe what the Bible says. Folks make it seem so hard to understand the Gospel. It isn’t. Some parts of it are mysteries for sure, but the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ is just that—simple. Why would He make it difficult to know Him? Or to follow Him?
her=here.
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