Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
“You talk curses while upholding Trent?!?”
That’s rich coming from someone who holds Catholics as AntiChrist.
~and throws curses in violation of God’s very own commandment, and where is that in the Old Testament, children? Third commandment ~ against curses in God’s name.
Sola Scriptura is apparently only applicable when it is convenient.
If God has given you faith in Christ, then rejoice like Paul rejoiced and declare that you, too, know whom you have believed.
Man alive. If you can't trust the MSM to give you accurate news, who can you trust! I'm almost tempted to cancel my newspaper subscription, but I’d have to have one first. I got it. I won't read my colleague's paper any more.
there is a fifty-fifty chance I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever
ROTFLOL!!!
Who knew Christ was such a gambler?
***I have never once read of any professed Calvinist who believed in homosexuality, from the pulpit or the congregation.***
http://www.christianarsenal.com/demrpt/articles/presbusa5.htm says that: ...A minister who was ousted from the Presbyterian Church USA for violating an order to stop marrying homosexual couples has been reinstated. Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken was ousted in June as a Presbyterian minister and pastor for defying the order from leaders of the Cincinnati presbytery. But the church court that oversees Presbyterians in Ohio and Michigan now says Van Kuiken should not have been removed while he was appealing that order, so it is reinstating Van Kuiken’s membership and ministry in the mainline denomination. The highest Presbyterian court ruled in 2000 that ministers may bless same-sex unions but cannot marry the couples. Van Kuiken says his reinstatement will allow him to challenge that policy’s legitimacy.
More Light Presbyterians join in celebrating the marriage of the Rev. Susan Craig and the Rev. Bear Ride – possibly the first same-gender Presbyterian clergy to marry since the state of California weighed in on marriage equality. Bear and Susan were married on June 19 at All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena, in the presence of family and friends, with the Revs Ed Bacon and George Regas and Rabbi Steven Jacobs officiating. Craig and Ride’s four adult children served as “Best People,” with Ride’s mother beaming in the front pew. Elder Michael Adee, Executive Director of More Light Presbyterians, and Martha Juillerat, founder of the Shower of Stoles Project, participated in the joyous celebration, with a number of Presbyterian clergy and friends praying, singing and cheering on.
What is unity within the Church? What does it mean to be the Body of Christ? What really threatens our Church? . First, unity is a gift from God given to the Church, not something we could manufacture or produce. Imagine the arrogance of claiming that we, mere mortals, are responsible for the unity of the Church. We take the place of God when we assume this role in our strivings to be God’s Church.
Second, unity in the Spirit is not uniformity of belief. As Presbyterians we are part of the Reformed tradition, semper reformanda, reformed and always reforming. As we gather next month in San Jose, we would do well by remembering Who is the Source of our Unity, and that we are part of Reformed tradition. Presbyterians are not fundamentalists insisting on lock-step belief and litmus tests of true faith.
The National Board of Directors of More Light Presbyterians is pleased to announce that Dr. Michael J. Adee has been named as the Executive Director & Field Organizer for More Light Presbyterians. This decision was made at our recent national board meeting at Ghost Ranch Conference Center, Santa Fe, NM.
Michael has been serving as our National Field Organizer since May of 1999. He served as a volunteer with More Light Presbyterians from 1991 to 1999 before being hired in our first staff position. Michael was ordained as the first openly gay Elder at Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church, Cincinnati, Ohio, a More Light Church. He moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico in 1997.
“We are deeply grateful for the leadership and service Michael has offered for nine years in our first staff position as National Field Organizer. Because of the exponential growth of our educational program, outreach and advocacy work, it is necessary for MLP to update our operational structure. A major grant for organizational development allows us to promote Michael to this new position and to create a second staff position in the near future,” said Vikki Dearing, Co-Moderator.
Good Presbyterians, all. Part of PCUSA, which claims Calvinism. Really? It doesn’t seem too close to your professions. http://www.pcusa.org/101/101-theology.htm says that:
Some of the principles articulated by John Calvin remain at the core of Presbyterian beliefs. Among these are the sovereignty of God, the authority of the scripture, justification by grace through faith and the priesthood of all believers. What they mean is that God is the supreme authority throughout the universe. Our knowledge of God and God’s purpose for humanity comes from the Bible, particularly what is revealed in the New Testament through the life of Jesus Christ. Our salvation (justification) through Jesus is God’s generous gift to us and not the result of our own accomplishments. It is everyone’s job - ministers and lay people alike - to share this Good News with the whole world. That is also why the Presbyterian church is governed at all levels by a combination of clergy and laity, men and women alike.
I see, a Calvin light. However, they do claim Reformed distinction:
Presbyterian Distinctives
Presbyterians are distinctive in two major ways: they adhere to a pattern of religious thought known as Reformed theology and a form of government that stresses the active, representational leadership of both ministers and church members.
Satisfied?
You said: Those are your words, not mine.
My words speak of Truth. Atheistic Christianity leads away from that and leaves you with a false man-made dead God.
***I have never once read of any professed Calvinist who believed in homosexuality, from the pulpit or the congregation.***
http://www.christianarsenal.com/demrpt/articles/presbusa5.htm says that: ...A minister who was ousted from the Presbyterian Church USA for violating an order to stop marrying homosexual couples has been reinstated. Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken was ousted in June as a Presbyterian minister and pastor for defying the order from leaders of the Cincinnati presbytery. But the church court that oversees Presbyterians in Ohio and Michigan now says Van Kuiken should not have been removed while he was appealing that order, so it is reinstating Van Kuiken’s membership and ministry in the mainline denomination. The highest Presbyterian court ruled in 2000 that ministers may bless same-sex unions but cannot marry the couples. Van Kuiken says his reinstatement will allow him to challenge that policy’s legitimacy.
More Light Presbyterians join in celebrating the marriage of the Rev. Susan Craig and the Rev. Bear Ride – possibly the first same-gender Presbyterian clergy to marry since the state of California weighed in on marriage equality. Bear and Susan were married on June 19 at All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena, in the presence of family and friends, with the Revs Ed Bacon and George Regas and Rabbi Steven Jacobs officiating. Craig and Ride’s four adult children served as “Best People,” with Ride’s mother beaming in the front pew. Elder Michael Adee, Executive Director of More Light Presbyterians, and Martha Juillerat, founder of the Shower of Stoles Project, participated in the joyous celebration, with a number of Presbyterian clergy and friends praying, singing and cheering on.
What is unity within the Church? What does it mean to be the Body of Christ? What really threatens our Church? . First, unity is a gift from God given to the Church, not something we could manufacture or produce. Imagine the arrogance of claiming that we, mere mortals, are responsible for the unity of the Church. We take the place of God when we assume this role in our strivings to be God’s Church.
Second, unity in the Spirit is not uniformity of belief. As Presbyterians we are part of the Reformed tradition, semper reformanda, reformed and always reforming. As we gather next month in San Jose, we would do well by remembering Who is the Source of our Unity, and that we are part of Reformed tradition. Presbyterians are not fundamentalists insisting on lock-step belief and litmus tests of true faith.
The National Board of Directors of More Light Presbyterians is pleased to announce that Dr. Michael J. Adee has been named as the Executive Director & Field Organizer for More Light Presbyterians. This decision was made at our recent national board meeting at Ghost Ranch Conference Center, Santa Fe, NM.
Michael has been serving as our National Field Organizer since May of 1999. He served as a volunteer with More Light Presbyterians from 1991 to 1999 before being hired in our first staff position. Michael was ordained as the first openly gay Elder at Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church, Cincinnati, Ohio, a More Light Church. He moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico in 1997.
“We are deeply grateful for the leadership and service Michael has offered for nine years in our first staff position as National Field Organizer. Because of the exponential growth of our educational program, outreach and advocacy work, it is necessary for MLP to update our operational structure. A major grant for organizational development allows us to promote Michael to this new position and to create a second staff position in the near future,” said Vikki Dearing, Co-Moderator.
Good Presbyterians, all. Part of PCUSA, which claims Calvinism. Really? It doesn’t seem too close to your professions. http://www.pcusa.org/101/101-theology.htm says that:
Some of the principles articulated by John Calvin remain at the core of Presbyterian beliefs. Among these are the sovereignty of God, the authority of the scripture, justification by grace through faith and the priesthood of all believers. What they mean is that God is the supreme authority throughout the universe. Our knowledge of God and God’s purpose for humanity comes from the Bible, particularly what is revealed in the New Testament through the life of Jesus Christ. Our salvation (justification) through Jesus is God’s generous gift to us and not the result of our own accomplishments. It is everyone’s job - ministers and lay people alike - to share this Good News with the whole world. That is also why the Presbyterian church is governed at all levels by a combination of clergy and laity, men and women alike.
I see, a Calvin light. However, they do claim Reformed distinction:
Presbyterian Distinctives
Presbyterians are distinctive in two major ways: they adhere to a pattern of religious thought known as Reformed theology and a form of government that stresses the active, representational leadership of both ministers and church members.
Satisfied?
You have more patience than do I. May the Lord bless you.
***We’re told to refrain from pridefully showing others our piety by kneeling and grimacing***
What you posted indicated that you were to pray in secret.
***Prayer by the congregation on Sunday morning is Biblically-mandated.***
I know it is; you’re welcome for us to point it out to you.
***No kneeling or grimacing required.***
Which goes back a few posts in which I said that I have never seen a Calvinist kneel in prayer. With adequate reason, I see.
You seem to need to inflate the criticism against you in order to combat some perceived weakness on your part.
It's really not necessary.
“There is no “sin of presumption.”
Of course there is. You cannot see it because you are in it.
The presumption is there. You have made God in your image. It’s exactly backward. You think you have a God that saves you as He wills, but that isn’t what you believe.
You believe your Faith wills it and it is God’s will but it is really your own. You are telling God you are acceptable. Not the other way around.
There is an arrogance to Calvinism.
No one got the story right. Everyone had an agenda against the RCC. And nothing untoward occurred.
Ever.
***You should try reading beyond Genesis.
There’s alot more to the story that you’re missing.***
We are the ones who keep pointing out large portions of the Bible that escaped the eagle eyes of the Calvinists, or at least their theology of death.
I understand the history of the descendants of Edom and their role in the development of Israel. Pity that more don’t.
I have the answer to that even though I’m not one of them.
“Oh, but those aren’t REALLY the elect. They are some other who thought they were elect and still think so, but they really aren’t our type of elect.”
LOL!
When the horrid WCF is trotted forth, one may reasonably expect that there is no other resort. The WCF portrays a vindictive and juvenile Reformed God that picks the arms and legs off humans like little boys do to flies. It then portrays those humans condemned to death as their own fault.
The Reformed God creates sin and the devil to distribute it, yet disclaims all responsibility for creating that sin.
The theology of death which condemns, not the theology of life which was preached by Jesus and spread by the Apostles and the Church.
While they like to occasionally make reference to Calvin, most of those in the PCUSA have never read a word of Calvin or the Westminster Confession or the Heidelburg Catechism.
Don't expect me to defend the PCUSA. Their vote last week was a final straw for many. The membership rolls of the PCA and the OPC will grow by leaps and bounds after this.
“You seem to need to inflate the criticism against you in order to combat some perceived weakness on your part.”
That’s a personal attack.
That isn’t tolerated on this board. If you can’t argue without attacking someone personally, I suggest you post on a closed thread.
Your own Confession states the pope is AntiChrist. That makes Catholics Antichrist.
Calvin said:
Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He hath determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others.
Pulling the wings off flies and blaming the flies.
***You said: It is my aim to understand how ANYONE could be a Calvinist.
The secret is to believe that YOU are one of the elect and all others are lost.
It is an exercise in establishing yourself as a sort of demi-God...all knowing, preserved from sin, the final arbiter of truth....God.
It is an illness.***
It is the high school student council in midlife. Joseph Smith took this principle and concocted an even more grandiose scheme.
Personally I am not enjoying the argument over predestination. I think Calvin is not to be discarded so easily. While conceptually it is easy to distinguish between foreknowing and fore-causing, it is not so easy when the foreknower is the Sovereign of all Creation who asks, in that book Catholics supposedly never preach from (despite the excellent sermon on Amos I heard today), "Can there be evil in the city and I have not done it?" and who declares in the greatest prophet before our Lord became a man, "I create weal and I create woe.
But I can tell a hawk from a handsaw and I know why your arguments are not given the hearing they might otherwise merit.
Gargantua saith:
Yet what does Catholicism preach? Say 10 "Our Fathers and 12"Hail Marys" and you'll be forgiven!!??The assignment of some pious act is generally called the "penance". My priest says, "For your penance, why don't you .... [the next time you say a Rosary, offer a decade for such and such]?" A couple of weeks ago I told him I was about to go to the chapel and say a full rosary (20 decades, 4 sets of mysteries) and suggested we work my penance into that.
So what Gargantua was talking about in the line I quote was not the Sacrament of Penance but the "penance" assigned during that sacrament. And penances are not given or performed to obtain forgiveness.
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