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To: thefrankbaum
The first part of the prayer is the words of the Angel. The "Mother of God" title comes from the Council of Ephesus in 431, fighting the Nestorian heresy. The last part of the prayer is a request for her prayers. The other parts of the Rosary are focused on meditation of the various mysteries of Christ. If the catechumen somehow finds this to be worship of Mary, I'm at a loss.

OK, you've missed the essence of what I just said. (The mathematics of 9 vs. 1).

Let's say I was your elementary teacher & I gave you a math problem: "Johnny's mommy has two former husbands. Each ex-husband has a child in Johnny's family and owe the same amount of child support and are steady in supplying it. But for every appeal Johnny's mommy makes to her first ex-husband for extra assistance, she makes nine such appeals to her second ex-husband. Who gets 90% of these appeals?"

Now I would think that an elementary student wouldn't do what you just did--start looking into the precise wording of the math problem to find where somebody might read into the interpretation that somehow Johnny's mommy was "devoted" in any way to either of her two ex-husbands.

IOW, my main point of the 9 vs. 1 reference was to show that the Catholic practice of the rosary only reinforces the idea in young Catholics that 90% of the "provision" power & "intercession" mediator power is not in Jesus Christ, but Mary. Mary is the primary provider. Mary is the primary intercessor.

Now once you realize this exterior experiential reality, then this whole question of devotional worship takes on understanding. My point is that it's not going to be just the bare word of "worship" that is directly linked to Mary in the same sentence of a catechism. Before a catechuman ever digests one word of the catechism, he/she has already been inaugurated & inundated in the presence of thousands of such prayers, and each utterance of that prayer in full is a 9-time petitioning of Mary, who then becomes identified as the "go-to" person (and Jesus then gets even further diluted when you toss in all the prayers to the saints).

I get if I had to give an analogy I'd pick Brigham Young and his 56-57 wives. Did Young love them all? Probably. (9 divorced him, so it wasn't always or remained always "mutual"). Did he give attention to all of them? Probably. But if he gave 9 times the communication preference to an add-on "wife" in comparison to his first, and then if each additional "wife" represented a saint in our analogy, then you see communicative dilution at work.

The question comes back to a question I asked another poster: "why, according to the Catholic Catechism, is your 'devotion to the Blessed Virgin...instrinsic to' your 'worship?'"

Regarding your VIS press release, do you have a link? I'd like to look the whole thing over before I respond.

http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/wc23.htm

Where does the priest talk about a "new plan of salvation"? He talks about God using Mary in the plan of salvation, giving us Christ through her. And you notice that everything he says is about us being perfected through her Son. Mary points to Christ, always.

(1) "Because without her the Lord did not want to save us without her"...

Oh really? The Lord-as-Savior & Redeemer of the World was 100% motivated by Mary to save us? (Change John 3:16 then from "God so loved the world..." to "Mary so loved the world...")

(2) "That we need her in our lives as Christians. We need a personal relationship with her just as we need a personal relationship with Jesus. In fact, it is her who is always bringing us closer to her Son..."

Well, boy the apostle John needed to know this...he would have properly re-edited John 17:3 then: "And this is eternal life, that you know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." The "Marian" version of John 17:3, according to this priest, would be: "And this is eternal life, that you know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He sent, and Mary, whom He blessed and is full of grace."

(3) "There’s no faster way to the Son than through His mother. And that is true in general, and that is true in particular, for each one of us...We too can call her 'mother' and she will help us come to eternal life in her Son."

Sorry, but Scripture contradicts this, and Mary is usurping the role of the Holy Spirit here: ...no one can say Jesus Christ is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3) [Oh, I know, I'm sure somebody may come back with a comment along the lines that "Mary is only a helper, advocate, and mediatrix to the Advocate Himself, the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit would in no way reject the mother of Jesus' intercession...that's not my point, and it wasn't the point of the priest. The priest explicitly said: "There's no faster way to the Son... -- he didn't just say there are multiple ways to the son, including Mary.]

(4) "We need her in our life to reveal to us her Son to be born through her as Jesus was."

OK, on this one I just need to get "technical." Had he said: "We need her in our life for the revelation of His life proceeded from her womb," that would have been fine. But notice the future and present tense of this phrasing: We need her in our life to reveal to us... [Why would we need her to reveal anything to us other than what Scripture has already revealed thru her life and thru her sacrifice and thru her Revelatory Son?...While the example of her earthly life is tremendously beneficial to us, and the future of our heavenly fellowship with her will be a great blessing, it's not her current revelatory or intercessory status that we "need" her for!

Do we "need" all of the body? (Yes) But Scripture doesn't highlight for us details of how we "need" those who have gone on before us. Revelation-wise, we need the tri-une God, and that's it!

Beyond that (other needs), yes we need the body of Christ, Mary included...but no more Mary than anybody else in the body!

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. (1 Corinthians 12:21-23)

(The message we keep hearing from Catholics is, "Mary is indispensable to you, because she's indispensable to me." Well, the "error" of that according to 1 Cor. 12:21-23 is that the entire body--not just Mary--is "indispensable." The message we keep hearing from Catholics is, "Mary is the object of dulia worship, not lutria worship and we just 'honor' Mary." Well, if it's only "honor" why are ya stopping at Mary? According to the apostle Paul, "the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor.")

229 posted on 05/21/2008 9:21:27 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
IOW, my main point of the 9 vs. 1 reference was to show that the Catholic practice of the rosary only reinforces the idea in young Catholics that 90% of the "provision" power & "intercession" mediator power is not in Jesus Christ, but Mary. Mary is the primary provider. Mary is the primary intercessor.

As I believe Tom Sowell says, you can prove anything with data if you get to choose the data. And I would add as a gloss, if you get to "weight" the data.

The 9 v. 1 contention depends for its validity on the Rosary being the only type of prayer or address to God used by Catholics, doesn't it? And then (while "ranking prayer" seems a tricky thing to do) the Rosary is not sort of grade A, Offishul, Liturgical prayer. Yes it is highly commended, but at least in our parish it is NEVER (in my experience) led by the clergy. It is, as it were, extracurricular. One or two of the priests is sometimes kneeling in the back of the church and praying with us, but it is always led by lay folk.

Last year "Our Lady or the Rosary" (aka "Stomp the Turks at Lepanto day") was bumped by a Sunday, since it is an observance of such low rank that a regular Sunday trumps it. That afternoon a few of us Lay Dominicans gathered with the Pastor (ours is a Dominican parish) and while Fr. Brian was at a prie-dieu in front, but to one side, we prayed the rosary "in choirs", that is, one side of the congregation 'against' the other.

I would venture to say that a number of lay people who go to Mass do not pray the rosary, while very few who pray the rosary with any regularity do not go to Mass.

Further, among those who pray the Rosary are many who pray the Liturgy of the Hours, or part of it. The Lay Dominicans are bound to say Morning and Evening prayer daily (except when t he exercise of an apostolic work gets in the way) and most of my acquaintance also pray "the Office of Readings" and "Night Prayer"

An interesting aspect of the place of Marian devotion is indicated by Night Prayer, to wit: when the "official" part of the service is over, complete with closing "May the all-powerful Lord grant us a restful night and a peaceful Death. —, Amen," THEN a "Marian antiphon" (or hymn) is sung or said. Some of us add the "O Lumen" which is a Dominican antiphon.

So while the hymn to Mary is prescribed, it is set outside the service proper.

And certainly the "O Lumen" is sort of EXTRA - extra- curricular.

All this goes to my suggestion that Marian prayer is certainly second-tier and generally overpowered by prayer to God or one or other person of the Trinity.

Further, while the "lyrics" of the Rosary are predominantly Marian as you have said, the "music" is WAY predominantly Dominical (NOT Dominican!) That is, we meditate on:

  1. The Annunciation
  2. The Visitation
  3. The Nativity
  4. The Presentation
  5. The Finding of Jesus in the Temple
  6. The Baptism
  7. The Cana Miracle
  8. Jesus' Preaching of the Kingdom
  9. The Transfiguration
  10. The Institution of the Eucharist
  11. The Agony in the Garden
  12. The Scourging
  13. The Crowning with Thorns
  14. Jesus's Carrying of His Cross
  15. The Crucifixion and Death
  16. The resurrection
  17. The Ascension
  18. Pentecost
  19. The Assumption
  20. The Crowning of Mary.
So 10% of the meditation is directed at strictly Marian stuff, and since at least in my thinking I tend to stress Mary as an eschatological figure, I don't distinguish greatly between her assumption and the taking up into heaven of All the Saints, and similarly for her coronation. So the 10% COULD be a maximum.

I'm really not interested in lots of fighting over who's getting to heaven and who isn't, but I am interested in clarifying and examining the issues as they actually are, and not as our various propagandistic inclinations would lead us to pretend they are.

428 posted on 05/22/2008 9:18:26 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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