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I don't know about you, but when I somehow seem to be involved with a "good deed" I mostly feel a kind of astonished relief. "Wow, I didn't mess it up!"

Yes, I know exactly what that is. I felt that way every week after teaching my Sunday School class. You feel some pressure and pray that God will carry you through it.

FK: "All I can say is that I have seen writings from the Fathers up to modern Catholics which exhort Mary to a high level of grandeur for her choice to say "Yes".

I could be WAY off base here. But I STILL assert that her "Yes," her choice, was a gift.

I (may -see next section) see it your way. All I can report is that many times when I have made that argument, very knowledgeable FR Apostolics have scolded me because if Mary did not use her "uninterfered with" free will, then she had no free will at all. I think that Mary was prepared by God for her role as God also prepares His elect to receive Him.

We have to come to an understanding about the "She (or any of the redeemed) could have chosen otherwise" problem. I'm not sure how to proceed except that it occurs to me that I COULD choose to hit myself on the head with my 16oz Estwing hammer.

Ah, that sounds easy enough, but I am forced to disagree. (And that's not just on a matter of general principle mind you. :) I go back to one of the top examples in scripture that shows God's will is always done. Jesus Himself prays for the cup to be taken away, but more so that the Father's will be done. We know the result, even over what His sinless Son prayed for. Now, if it is certain that the Father's will was that He die for our sins, would it not also be certain that it was the Father's unalterable will that Jesus be born? If Jesus was in no position to deny the will of the Father, then how could Mary have been?

We share the "angels twisting our arms out of their sockets" experience. The angel was doing the work, but even then we had to decide not to resist, from climbing up on the cot or table to not slugging her (with our good arm) when she twisted so much that tears started in our eyes ....

Please pardon this total aside, but are there female angels in Catholicism? I don't have terribly strong feelings about it either way, but the only ones I can think of that are mentioned in the Bible seem to be male. The truth may be that they are neither, but at least they "appear" to be described as being male.

Is all our "Cooperation" with grace a totally worthless illusion?

I suppose that might depend in part on from what we can derive worth. In the Biblical parent-child analogy I see all of us as totally dependent toddlers. So, we all know that sometimes a toddler thinks she has done something grand, when objectively that might not be the case. The parent lavishes credit nevertheless. I see nothing wrong with this. The experience of the child is real to her, and by the love of the parent, is right.

IS there a human will? Is the will in any way important. Does Divine grace make us automata, or lap-dogs, and if so, in what way? Or is will essential to being human. What does it mean to be "Free" [if] we cannot or do not choose?

I would say there sure is a human will and it is very important. It just cannot trump God's will. Sometimes they are in alignment and sometimes they are not. God always wins. God's will is His plan. Now, I do not know if God's plan includes everything, as in "everything" everything, but whatever it does include will happen regardless of whether the will of man (or "A" man) agrees or not.

I would also say that Divine grace prepares us for God's plan. We certainly do not experience being lapdogs, and we would never make that comparison when it comes to our own toddlers. We are led infallibly to Him, and make the choice in accordance with His plan.

Having a will is absolutely essential to being human, it is a vital part of being created in God's image. Being "free" is always going to be within the parameters of God's will. Experientially, there's a lot of room in there, but in truth God's will is always sovereign alone.

Can God "direct" our wills — can we imagine or say this without imagining, since it seems unimaginable — without compromising our freedom?

My position has been that it works very differently depending on whether the direction is to "good" or "evil", but I think the Bible says "Yes". But I don't think this would at all compromise our freedom if we accept that our freedom is not absolute. Rousseau and his ilk seemed to think that man had absolute freedom, but this idea led to ridiculous conclusions, such as that there could be no rational God. That is, the concept of the absolute freedom of man NECESSARILY shuts out a meaningful or sovereign God.

Yes, there's the Biblical metaphor of being clay in God's hands. But won't we insist that that is a metaphor which incompletely conveys the truth? In GOD's eyes, we are LIKE clay, but are we really no different from clay?

Well, to give you a direct answer, "Yes and no". There. :) I would say that in comparison to the rest of God's creation, in that theatre, we are nothing like clay. We are unique and special because we alone have been created in God's image. We alone have the reasoning powers and wills that only humans have, and we have the ability to commune with God. We alone were intended to have a personal relationship with God. These are very important. OTOH, in comparison to God's infiniteness, finite man IS the same as clay. We have no more right to question God than would a rock or a chimp. In that respect God stands alone, above all He has created.

FK: Yet, I perceive that they are thought of as being "above" or elevated over the rest of us.

Honor students. We're ALL students.

Well, my very rebutable impression was that Mary and the Saints all got to skip purgatory. Could a true student get to avoid purgatory?

As to perceptions by Protestants, First I think many individual RCs are probably superstitious, and more are sloppy in their speech. People of whatever persuasion often refer to images using "personal" language,"Look at this little statue I got." "Oh, she's lovely! Where did you get her?" This always gives me the heebie-jeebies, but at least some of the people who do it are perfectly sound theologically ......

I can accept that. I've never been TOO hung up on that issue, as I think I can see that there are many who get coverage who are probably not practicing approved doctrine, etc. I'm thinking of the grilled cheese sandwich crowd and whatnot. We see that stuff in the media, and, ........... well, you know. :)

To bring it back to merit and grace and freedom and will and all that: I am an irascible guy, to my shame. My impulse when somebody cuts me off in traffic or whatever is to show him my middle finger puppet and make various suggestions about the canine ancestry on his mother's side and so forth.

But you're a biker dude now. There has to be some sort of slack built into the rules for that kind of stuff. :)

But speaking 'after the flesh' I made a choice, I make it often, and it is becoming easier to make, and a leetle, teeny, tiny "work of mercy" is becoming almost a habit. I am less likely to take a header into the cesspool of rage. At the same time, I am becoming more aware of how anger and hatred and envy and competitiveness and a veritable swamp of nastiness are going on all the time in me and my thoughts are drowned out by the clamor of noxious peepers.

AMEN! That is exactly how I would describe the Spirit-led process of sanctification as working. We will never run out of issues, and every little improvement (victory) is so wonderful. Praise God.

I give up. Who can understand this stuff?

One great thing is that God leads us to try. :)