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[ Outside of the Church and Liturgy, the Bible is out of context. ]

You have effectively cut the Holy Spirit right out of the loop.. For the Bible(either part) without the Holy Spirit's help to discern it is the "dead letter".. Not the clergy's help but the Holy Spirits help.. Same thing happened to the Jews.. with their clergy.. dead tradition and religious dogma..

On the otherhand, You have displayed the main error of the RCC/EO and many/most Protestant "churchs".. by ignoring or occluding the Holy Spirits real function..

I didn't say the Bible was illegible outside of Church and Liturgy... only out of context. When properly understood, you will find that Biblical History is Liturgical in nature.

Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.

Note that it doesn't say in "reading". At the time of Christ and for a millenium afterward, Bibles were not widely available. One went to Church to "hear" the word of God. Interestingly, there was one universal Church at this time... before people began to make their own personal (and oftentimes self-serving) interpretations.

INDEED you are exceedingly accurate yet again, here:

You have effectively cut the Holy Spirit right out of the loop.. For the Bible(either part) without the Holy Spirit’s help to discern it is the “dead letter”.. Not the clergy’s help but the Holy Spirits help.. Same thing happened to the Jews.. with their clergy.. dead tradition and religious dogma..

On the otherhand, You have displayed the main error of the RCC/EO and many/most Protestant “churchs”.. by ignoring or occluding the Holy Spirits real function..

You have effectively cut the Holy Spirit right out of the loop..

That's what I mean by "begging the question".

I don't think you intend anything bad. I'm not saying that.

But sooner or later the conversation between Catholics and Protestants (and people who eschew denominations) is going to come down to ecclesiology. And that's going to come down to the relationship between the Holy Spirit and the Church (and to "what is 'the Church' anyway?")

I agree with pgyanke that the Bible taken by itself is "out of context". To say it in a nice, weaselly Catholic way, "Out of 'the fullness' of context," because I think the Church/Sacred Tradition/Individual Piety/Bible/etc. make one integral package.

On the other hand, if I understand you, speaking for another imnportant point of view, you think any concrete organization, with - you know - real estate, an address, a bank account and a contract with a publishing house is ESSENTIALLY a hindrance to the Holy Spirit, despite being able to assist with things like producing Bibles (and translations thereof) and a place where some really great and some really awful hymns are sung.

AS an effort to carry that conversation along a little I'd offer this: Christian Matrimony is a "School of charity." It's the reality of the person next you that gives you the opportunity to practice charity where it's hard. It's a version of Linus's complain,"I love mankind, it's people I can't stand."

When I was a reserve deputy, by definition I was subordinate to everyone else. That was easy most of the time because very nearly everyone else knew the job better than I did. But when I was subordinate to someone with a distinct penchant for trouble making or with some incompetence (how do you explain to your superior that he is not fastening the belly-chain correctly?) THEN was when I had a chance to see what humility was all about.

Supporting a theologically and pastorally bumble-footed pastor without stomping all over my principles is tricky and demanding. And it was good for me to try.

If I remove myself from the society of others, one commandment I will not get a lot of practice in is "Love thy neighbor". For some people that's a vocation. I don't think so for all.

The above is not meant to be conclusive or even an argument. It's an attempt to state the other position, that's all.

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear brothers in Christ!

There is no substitute teacher for the Holy Spirit.

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. – Romans 8:1

But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. - John 14:26

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. – I John 2:27

If we were stranded on a desert island or in a Communist country, with no Christian fellowship at all and not a scrap of Scripture - or if we were deaf and mute and had no way to communicate - or if we were mentally retarded ---- still, the indwelling Spirit of God would teach us what we Christians must know.

To God be the glory!