Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley
The Catholic Church teaches that in the Eucharist, the communion wafer and the altar wine are transformed and really become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Have you ever met anyone who has found this Catholic doctrine to be a bit hard to take?
If so, you shouldn't be surprised. When Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6, his words met with less than an enthusiastic reception. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (V 52). "This is a hard saying who can listen to it?" (V60). In fact so many of his disciples abandoned him over this that Jesus had to ask the twelve if they also planned to quit. It is interesting that Jesus did not run after his disciples saying, "Don't go — I was just speaking metaphorically!" How did the early Church interpret these challenging words of Jesus? Interesting fact. One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism. Why? You guessed it. They heard that this sect regularly met to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Did the early Christians say: "wait a minute, it's only a symbol!"? Not at all. When trying to explain the Eucharist to the Roman Emperor around 155AD, St. Justin did not mince his words: "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him . . . is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages. In trying to explain how bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, several theologians went astray and needed to be corrected by Church authority. Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I'd look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I'd still substantially be the same ole guy as when I started.
St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can't be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ's body and blood. A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the "sub-stance", what "stands-under" the surface, came to be called "transubstantiation."
What makes this happen? The power of God's Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: "This is my Body, This is my Blood." Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read "Spirit") whips over the surface of the water and God's Word resounds. "Let there be light" and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation. But why did Jesus arrange for this transformation of bread and wine? Because he intended another kind of transformation. The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: "you are what you eat?" The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.
Our evangelical brethren speak often of an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus. But I ask you, how much more personal and intimate can you get? We receive the Lord's body into our physical body that we may become Him whom we receive! Such an awesome gift deserves its own feast. And that's why, back in the days of Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Assisi, the Pope decided to institute the Feast of Corpus Christi.
Christ did not come to contradict the word of God, but to fulfill it. As Christ corrected your opinion...
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." -- Matthew 5:17
Now you're just making stuff up.
I did not say He came to destroy the law or the prophets.
Jesus restored a man broken by his own failing. This wasn’t a wood-shed moment. Your view of the Apostles is very distorted, my FRiend.
Well, that's certainly an "original" perspective.
Not Scriptural in any way, but unique, nonetheless.
So three points for creativity.
Does Baptism remove original sin?
Pgyanke also said "original sin is something we lost, not something we carry."
Lots of unique opinions here.
There is nothing unique about the forgiveness of original sin at Baptism.
Oh really? Please point me to Scripture in support of your position vs mine.
Baptism does not "forgive sins."
We are saved by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -- Romans 4:4-5 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Men carry the stain of original sin all the days of their life.
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." -- Philippians 3:8-12"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
But if a man is born again by the Holy Spirit, Christ will cover that stain with His own righteousness.
"She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet." -- Proverbs 31:21
Not me. Not any man or woman Baptized by the Catholic Church.
Well, from quickly perusing this thread anyone can see that I've posted lots of Scripture (Romans 4 & 5, Hebrews 11, Philippians 3...) compared to your zero Scripture.
Maybe the discussion would be better served if you tried to find some support for your belief from the Bible.
You are correct for the wrong reason. "Forgive" seems to be the wrong verb. I should have said "removal" rather than "forgiveness."
"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized" -- Ats 2:41
As Peter tells us, first a man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit by God's gift of grace through faith in Christ which enables him to understand the Scriptures and believe. Then that man is baptized as a sign and sign of his membership in the family of God who have been saved by His Son's work on the cross.
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" -- Ephesians 1:13
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." -- Acts 8:12
Irrelevant.
As Peter tells us, first a man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit by God's gift of grace through faith in Christ which enables him to understand the Scriptures and believe. Then that man is baptized as a sign and sign of his membership in the family of God who have been saved by His Son's work on the cross.
Irrelevant.
You can carry the stain of Original Sin around as long as Jean Cauvin says you must, I don't care.
The Sacrament of Baptism removes original sin, but if you do not want the Sacrament, no one can force it upon you.
Obviously further example of the
RC edifice Perceptual Problem RCP2.
I’m soooo thankful and gratified that great numbers of folks see me otherwise.
Now Reggie, you likely know that
MISDIRECTION
is one of the Magnificent Magical Earth-Mother Mary dogmas still in the works. It has long had many adherents already in the RC edifice.
It’s rumored that it all began when the Lourdes figure playing the role of Mary went to blow her nose but put her hanky instead to her ear. Thus began the rite and ritual of misdirection.
Of course, it has flowered in many directions, since.
Good points.
INDEED! AMEN! AMEN!
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