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The Eucharist: The Body of Christ? ("Respectful Dialogue" thread)
Our Sunday Visitor (via Catholic Culture) ^ | 1/2005 | Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.

Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley

The Catholic Church teaches that in the Eucharist, the communion wafer and the altar wine are transformed and really become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Have you ever met anyone who has found this Catholic doctrine to be a bit hard to take?

If so, you shouldn't be surprised. When Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6, his words met with less than an enthusiastic reception. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (V 52). "This is a hard saying who can listen to it?" (V60). In fact so many of his disciples abandoned him over this that Jesus had to ask the twelve if they also planned to quit. It is interesting that Jesus did not run after his disciples saying, "Don't go — I was just speaking metaphorically!"

How did the early Church interpret these challenging words of Jesus? Interesting fact. One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism. Why? You guessed it. They heard that this sect regularly met to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Did the early Christians say: "wait a minute, it's only a symbol!"? Not at all. When trying to explain the Eucharist to the Roman Emperor around 155AD, St. Justin did not mince his words: "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Sav­ior being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him . . . is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages. In trying to explain how bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, several theologians went astray and needed to be corrected by Church authority. Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I'd look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I'd still substantially be the same ole guy as when I started.

St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can't be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ's body and blood. A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the "sub-stance", what "stands-under" the surface, came to be called "transubstantiation."

What makes this happen? The power of God's Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: "This is my Body, This is my Blood." Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read "Spirit") whips over the surface of the water and God's Word resounds. "Let there be light" and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation.

But why did Jesus arrange for this transformation of bread and wine? Because he intended another kind of transformation. The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: "you are what you eat?" The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.

Our evangelical brethren speak often of an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus. But I ask you, how much more personal and intimate can you get? We receive the Lord's body into our physical body that we may become Him whom we receive!

Such an awesome gift deserves its own feast. And that's why, back in the days of Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Assisi, the Pope decided to institute the Feast of Corpus Christi.


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology
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To: Iscool

Actually, I wouldn’t really doubt that He spoke in Aramaic.

But the notion that He was installing Peter as the foundation rock is absurd.


821 posted on 04/28/2008 12:07:06 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: pgyanke
Ok... you’ve really left the reservation... This is so historically ignorant I really have no clue where to begin.

You could start by showing us an English speaking Catholic translation translated from the 'original' Arimaic...Surely Jerome and some of the early church fathers held onto some of the manuscripts...

822 posted on 04/28/2008 12:10:54 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool

Well good thing the concept of respect towards each other has left the building.


823 posted on 04/28/2008 12:12:52 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: 1000 silverlings
Well good thing the concept of respect towards each other has left the building.

And I was all set to feel insulted...But since we're now back to normal,,,

824 posted on 04/28/2008 12:19:38 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool

lol. I’ve never seen anyone described “as off the reservation and.. so historically ignorant”, well, there’s a first for everything I guess


825 posted on 04/28/2008 12:21:16 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: Iscool
Your challenges are showing your ignorance... and no, I don't mean this in a snarky way. I mean it according to the language we both (attempt to) speak. Ignorance means "unknowing" not "stupid" as some take it.

Actually, there are fragments of the Aramaic. The Maronite Church especially has taken on the responsibility of preserving the Aramaic language in Liturgy, for example. No, I can't show it to you here. But there are many theologians of all backgrounds who have studied these.

826 posted on 04/28/2008 12:21:41 PM PDT by pgyanke ("Huntered"--The act of being ignored by media and party to prevent name recognition)
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To: 1000 silverlings
Well good thing the concept of respect towards each other has left the building.

What a bizarre sentiment.

827 posted on 04/28/2008 12:26:59 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: Marysecretary

Agreed. Of course, sometimes it’s not the content, but the delivery that’s the problem. :-)


828 posted on 04/28/2008 12:29:14 PM PDT by TheDon
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To: wagglebee; Marysecretary
Likewise, if you have been TAUGHT that Peter WAS NOT the Rock and this belief is critical to your rejection of Catholicism, then it is very difficult to accept that the Lord meant EXACTLY what He said.

AUGUSTINE:

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).

And I tell you...‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ...Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

But whom say ye that I am? Peter answered, ‘Thou art the Christ, The Son of the living God.’ One for many gave the answer, Unity in many. Then said the Lord to him, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.’ Then He added, ‘and I say unto thee.’ As if He had said, ‘Because thou hast said unto Me, “Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God;” I also say unto thee, “Thou art Peter.” ’ For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. ‘Therefore,’ he saith, ‘Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock’ which Thou hast confessed, upon this rock which Thou hast acknowledged, saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church;’ that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, ‘will I build My Church.’ I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon Thee.

For men who wished to be built upon men, said, ‘I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas,’ who is Peter. But others who did not wish to built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, ‘But I am of Christ.’ And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, ‘Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?’ And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter. This same Peter therefore who had been by the Rock pronounced ‘blessed,’ bearing the figure of the Church (Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VI, St. Augustin, Sermon XXVI.1-4, pp. 340-341).


829 posted on 04/28/2008 12:31:12 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: wagglebee; Iscool
And if He was speaking in Aramaic?

I guess we'd have to see it in writing. Please provide it.
830 posted on 04/28/2008 12:46:01 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Peter the Rock - A discussion on the views of the early Church Fathers
831 posted on 04/28/2008 12:47:26 PM PDT by pgyanke ("Huntered"--The act of being ignored by media and party to prevent name recognition)
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To: wagglebee
Then again, how do Protestants know that the first time Christ said Cephas He meant Peter, but the next time He said Cephas he meant himself?

Maybe, just maybe, because He made it clear He named Simon "Cephas".

John 1:
[42] He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas" (which means Peter).


And the second time:

Matthew 16:
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.


He didn't call Peter "this rock".

832 posted on 04/28/2008 12:57:06 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE
He didn't call Peter "this rock".

He called him Peter (Rock), then referred back to him as "this rock."

833 posted on 04/28/2008 12:58:52 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: pgyanke

That’s a great link!


834 posted on 04/28/2008 1:00:51 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: pgyanke

—a sanitized—screened—chosen—adjusted ‘purified’

discussion on the sanitized, screened, chosen, adjusted ‘purified’ views of some early Church Fathers.

There. corrected.


835 posted on 04/28/2008 1:02:53 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Iscool
There's just as much evidence that He spoke it in Zulu...But God chose to preserve His words in Greek...

Actually, you are 100% WRONG. We have no reason to believe that the Disciples would all speak any language other than Aramaic, no historian (Catholic, Protestant or Jewish) has EVER suggested that in regular conversation He spoke anything other than Aramaic.

If Jesus spoke the scripture in Aramaic, none of us would have a New Testament...

And why would that be?

836 posted on 04/28/2008 1:04:16 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Iscool; pgyanke
You could start by showing us an English speaking Catholic translation translated from the 'original' Arimaic...

NOBODY has ever suggested that the New Testament wasn't originally WRITTEN DOWN in ancient Greek, that doesn't mean that our Lord spoke Greek in everyday conversation.

837 posted on 04/28/2008 1:06:40 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Iscool
If Jesus spoke the scripture in Aramaic, none of us would have a New Testament...

Ridiculous.

838 posted on 04/28/2008 1:12:51 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: OLD REGGIE; Iscool

YOU YOURSELF provide the “proof” in this post:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2007572/posts?page=832#832

“Cephas” is Aramaic, not Greek.


839 posted on 04/28/2008 1:13:14 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Petronski

Of course I’ve run across a couple of people on here who seemed to believe that the Bible was written in English by King James.


840 posted on 04/28/2008 1:14:49 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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