And to all a good night.
May the Body and Blood of Christ bring you all to eternal life.
Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley
The Catholic Church teaches that in the Eucharist, the communion wafer and the altar wine are transformed and really become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Have you ever met anyone who has found this Catholic doctrine to be a bit hard to take?
If so, you shouldn't be surprised. When Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6, his words met with less than an enthusiastic reception. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (V 52). "This is a hard saying who can listen to it?" (V60). In fact so many of his disciples abandoned him over this that Jesus had to ask the twelve if they also planned to quit. It is interesting that Jesus did not run after his disciples saying, "Don't go — I was just speaking metaphorically!" How did the early Church interpret these challenging words of Jesus? Interesting fact. One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism. Why? You guessed it. They heard that this sect regularly met to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Did the early Christians say: "wait a minute, it's only a symbol!"? Not at all. When trying to explain the Eucharist to the Roman Emperor around 155AD, St. Justin did not mince his words: "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him . . . is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages. In trying to explain how bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, several theologians went astray and needed to be corrected by Church authority. Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I'd look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I'd still substantially be the same ole guy as when I started.
St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can't be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ's body and blood. A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the "sub-stance", what "stands-under" the surface, came to be called "transubstantiation."
What makes this happen? The power of God's Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: "This is my Body, This is my Blood." Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read "Spirit") whips over the surface of the water and God's Word resounds. "Let there be light" and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation. But why did Jesus arrange for this transformation of bread and wine? Because he intended another kind of transformation. The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: "you are what you eat?" The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.
Our evangelical brethren speak often of an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus. But I ask you, how much more personal and intimate can you get? We receive the Lord's body into our physical body that we may become Him whom we receive! Such an awesome gift deserves its own feast. And that's why, back in the days of Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Assisi, the Pope decided to institute the Feast of Corpus Christi.
You guys claim Peter and rock are the same thing...Then why aren't they translated the same...Why did Jesus NOT say, you are rock??? And upon this rock,,,,
Or why did Jesus NOT say, you are Peter, and upon this Peter I will build my church???
So nice to see Biblical truth clearly stated on that issue.
If the one who posts the thread is supposed to moderate it, then he has to step up. Letting henchman decide the rules is, from what little I can even understand about it, is not in the ruleplay.
I think I very much "get" the problem with us feelthy, steenkin' papists thinking that somehow we are "The" Church. Do you know that we view all Baptized (with water and the explicit invocation of the Holy Trinity) persons to be members of the Church? We do.
And I mention this mostly to say that there often is a misunderstanding of the fine print of what Catholics say.
We also do not say that Baptism is absolutely necessary, only "ordinarily necessary" to salvation.
In any event, I do, maybe fondly and stupidly, think that we should be able to examine different doctrines together, and lay aside, for the time being, the question of how your failing to see that I am always right about everything important means that of course you will spend eternity with the oven sent on "broil" (or maybe I will -- let's wait for the upstate returns.)
I am officially not complaining about your postings. I am unspeakably wise, yes, but not that wise.
NOT Biblically nor factually correct, at all.
That confuses the Church Universal made up of all who trust in Christ for their Salvation in every group and club
with the Roman Catholic edifice.
Not me. Not when I’m conscious and in my more or less right mind.
Those are NOT the ONLY two options just because you say they are.
My choice is often the road less traveled. And in this case, it is in the interest of truth--God's Biblical Truth. It is neither out of ignorance NOR disrespect, per se. I can respect a lot of things about the Roman edifice. I cannot respect THAT LIE.
Your construction on Christian reality may try and rob me of that truth. However, I won't hear of it.
Well I am relieved to know that at that moment when you loose consciousness and pass on to the Lord you realize you will finally see the Truth!! There is hope for you yet!
Honestly maddawg, in the course of our posting history, have we ever treated each other with disrespect? Did we need a self-appointed thread nanny to monitor our conversations, either in public or private? didn’t we share some good conversation, or am I wrong? Do you know me as a hate-filled individual, or vice-versa?
Far toooooooooooo True for comfort! Wish it had been demonstrated otherwise. And, as some of us expected, it was too predictable for comfort, too. Thanks for the candor.
And to all a good night.
May the Body and Blood of Christ bring you all to eternal life.
At that moment, we will, evidently, see every nth degree of when we were right and wrong and to what degree and the same for 100% of everyone we interacted with and the impact of our rightness and wrongness on their rightness and wrongness and how each felt about every aspect of same.
That’s quite a lot of truth. All the more amazing that Christ manages it with us in evidently short seconds of earth time.
In my experience political correctness is invoked when the argument is lost.
So then you think he was NOT speaking a metaphor..
You know as he normally spoke/taught/preached.. in metaphor..
So just, all of a sudden, he spoke literal nonsense..
WHY?.. just so the (future) "Eucharist" would seem logical?..
You're straining at gnats.. and swallowing camels..
It was a metaphor as completely as any he ever spoke..
You know, you are ABSOLUTELY right.
I want to personally and humbly apologize to each and every person who has taken the time to read this thread. My thought, that Christians should communicate in charity one toward another, was a grievous error.
The thought that adults should act like adults: foolishness and utopianism!!!! This is the INTERNET. Politeness is not supposed to be the rule. Politeness is only for the WEAK.
The thought that Christians should use the model of charitable communication advocated by St. Paul and St. Peter in their epistles was nothing more than pollyanish, at best.
Again, I apologize for that error. It won't be repeated (at least by me).
Some here already have my respect, and you know who you are. As far as I’m concerned though, if others want my respect, they can start earning it.
Could you please remove the “respectful dialogue” designator on this thread? It obviously is a concept that is not appropriate for Free Republic.
Thank you.
Maybe Jesus used this metaphor to expose the spiritually anal among us..
Trying to make this metaphor literal requires Pen and Teller magic.. and Rip Taylor humor..
Some people simply can't handle the concept of polite debate, based on facts. I haven't heard a single contribution from you other than criticizing this thread's existence.
Someone earlier called this thread absurd-- it's way beyond absurd.
I agree. This thread has gone beyond absurd.
Who started this idiotic thread, anyway???
I wouldn’t say every time but it sure seems to frequently be the case.
Now, now, Mark.
Give it 3 months.
In your patience you possess your soul, according to Scripture. Be not weary in well doing is another verse.
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