Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley
The Catholic Church teaches that in the Eucharist, the communion wafer and the altar wine are transformed and really become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Have you ever met anyone who has found this Catholic doctrine to be a bit hard to take?
If so, you shouldn't be surprised. When Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6, his words met with less than an enthusiastic reception. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (V 52). "This is a hard saying who can listen to it?" (V60). In fact so many of his disciples abandoned him over this that Jesus had to ask the twelve if they also planned to quit. It is interesting that Jesus did not run after his disciples saying, "Don't go — I was just speaking metaphorically!" How did the early Church interpret these challenging words of Jesus? Interesting fact. One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism. Why? You guessed it. They heard that this sect regularly met to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Did the early Christians say: "wait a minute, it's only a symbol!"? Not at all. When trying to explain the Eucharist to the Roman Emperor around 155AD, St. Justin did not mince his words: "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him . . . is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages. In trying to explain how bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, several theologians went astray and needed to be corrected by Church authority. Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I'd look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I'd still substantially be the same ole guy as when I started.
St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can't be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ's body and blood. A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the "sub-stance", what "stands-under" the surface, came to be called "transubstantiation."
What makes this happen? The power of God's Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: "This is my Body, This is my Blood." Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read "Spirit") whips over the surface of the water and God's Word resounds. "Let there be light" and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation. But why did Jesus arrange for this transformation of bread and wine? Because he intended another kind of transformation. The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: "you are what you eat?" The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.
Our evangelical brethren speak often of an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus. But I ask you, how much more personal and intimate can you get? We receive the Lord's body into our physical body that we may become Him whom we receive! Such an awesome gift deserves its own feast. And that's why, back in the days of Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Assisi, the Pope decided to institute the Feast of Corpus Christi.
See #356 and learn. Just like with Holy Scripture the uniformed extract individual “verses” without understanding the whole (of Divine Revelation in the case of Scripture).
The rest of my resposne was what you thought was (or might have been) divisive in posing the question.
Don't know what that means.. i.e. ain't following you..
But all the denomination/sheep pens/schisms/holding pens/flesh pots are needed so that the "sheep" self sort themselves into categories.. So the sheep DON'T stampede.. LoL.. The Flock is obviously outside the sheep pens.. You know in the pasture(Ps 23)..
John 6 is an interesting bit of scripture. It is obviously as strange for the people of Jesus time as ours. Bringing up imagery of cannabalism and all. Of course, that is not what Jesus was suggesting. Nor do I think that is what the Catholic Church teaches or practices either. This thread has been helpful to me in clarifying what the Catholic Church teaches in this regard.
One of the things that makes John 6 a particulary poignant passage of scripture for me is verse 66-69. Both that the Savior's teachings, in the earlier verses, were rejected by many, and that the twelve knew that if they were to reject the Savior, there was no one else who could save them.
The LDS church, to which I am a member, partakes of the sacrament, bread and water, each Sunday. We do it in rememberance of Jesus Christ.
Our prayer over the bread is as follows:
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.
Our prayer over the water:
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.
You said: I was going to respond and then I thought this might be a joke. Is it?
No, not a joke, but not what I think either. I was pointing out the absurd with the absurd. My point was that I am a Catholic and I belong to the Catholic Church. If one believes they are free to label the Church I belong to with any name they choose, then I am free to do the same.
Respect starts with how we address each other. If your name is Samuel, I don’t show you respect by calling you Samantha or Dumbass. It goes both ways. If you don’t show me the respect of referring to my faith by it’s proper name then I don’t feel obliged to hold myself to any higher standard....I might do it anyways, but I’m not obliged to.
You said: It refers to “Roman Church” 4 times and “Catholic Church” 26 times. Most times, it refers to “The Church” (741 times), a foreshortening of “the Catholic Church” in the title “Catechism of the Catholic Church.”
Interesting... many who are Separated from Truth use the very same approach to Holy Scripture.
Well, but in fairness, don't a LOT of people, without malice aforethought, say Roman Catholic Church when they mean the Latin Rite?
I guess I don't as a rule objectt to to the usage of RCC or RC or "Roman Catholic". I DO object to people thinking that we claim for the Latin Rite (the RC or RCC or Roman Catholic Church) what we claim only for the Church where it means those, ah, rites in communion with the See of Rome PLUS other ecclesial assemblies without the plene esse of Churchitude. The Latin Rite may have the numbers, but we don't have exclusive claim to the mojo.
The "Chief Cornerstone".. or cornerstone (of the foundation).. Many buildings have/and had a cornerstone dedicating that building.. All other stones are equal..
Buildings made of straw, wood and stubble(denominations) have no cornerstone.. But the metaphor used is a metaphor.. when used literally the metaphor assumes cartoon caracteristics, like the Roman Catholic Church..
A simple concept which some struggle with. :-)
My post serves to prove that a mention of “Roman Church” in CCC #1059 is not dispositive on this question.
Nothing more.
One of my recent teachers says mercy is the perfection of justice. I'm working on what that might mean, but I've already figured out that I am doing well on failing in perfection.
Well of course it is...Jesus is the Rock thruout Scripture...
You guys claim Peter and rock are the same thing...Then why aren't they translated the same...Why did Jesus NOT say, you are rock??? And upon this rock,,,,
Or why did Jesus NOT say, you are Peter, and upon this Peter I will build my church???
You said: I am doing well on failing in perfection.
Well my friend, there is plenty of room on the imperfection bench right next to me!
I think you've GOT IT....
MAYBE NOT...
"The flesh profits NOTHING" - Jesus..
You said: You guys claim Peter and rock are the same thing
No, Jesus established that as evidenced by Holy Scripture. I am sorry that your personal interpretation of Holy Scripture has failed to recognize that particular aspect of Truth.
Indeed, many Catholics are poorly catechized. When Father asked me to take over the Religious Education program at our parish, I began by examining the Maronite textbooks. Theologically, they were excellent! But ... parents balked because they were not 'hands on', especially for the little ones. The other conundrum I ran into was the fact that the 18 parish children ranged in age from 3 to 16, some of whom live in 'mixed' (Orthodox/Maronite) homes. Having raised a child in the RC Church and been exposed to the lousy materials used to educate her at both the Catholic School and parish levels, I set out to find a kid friendly program for the very little ones while using the Maronite textbooks for the older children. I went with Ignatius Press.
During the year, a new RC family began attending Mass at our small Church. The daughter is age 11. In the RC Diocese of Albany, she has been baptized and received First Communion but not First Penance! That shocked me! How did she slip through the program? I later learned from another Maronite parishioner that her grandson (Maronite / RC family, attending Sunday Mass at a RC parish) was in the same situation! It turns out that this is the current practice of this diocese. Worse yet, her grandson's parish just dropped ALL formal religious education because of parent complaints about the time, etc. This was done with the permission of the bishop ...even more shocking (but not surprising).
The last shock came when I asked the one mother how it was that her daughter had received First Communion but not First Penance. She explained that the diocese leaves the decision of determining when a child is ready to go to Confession, up to the parents. Good God! What's wrong with this picture? The conditions for receiving First Communion are that the child recognizes the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the consecrated host and wine, which is the very topic of this discussion amongst adults. Yet, the parent decides if the child understands right from wrong? I asked this woman's 11 year old daughter a question: "If I slap your mother across the face, is that right or wrong?" "Wrong", she replied. "Why", I asked. "Because she is made in the image of God", she responded. The kid gets it yet the mother thinks she is not ready for First Penance. The daughter meanwhile cajoled her mother to attend our Reconciliation Service and go to private confession. Why? Because she wants to go? My task, now, is to convince the mother to enroll the daughter in next years' Religious Education class so we can get her to the Sacrament of Penance.
The sad fact is that many parents today have time to take their children to Judo, Karate, Football, Dance Class ... you name it ... but no time for religious education. Is it any wonder that these children grow up with such a poor understanding of their faith?
Well, since he took a fisherman named Simon and named him Cephas, I submit that Jesus DID say just that.
You said: Well, but in fairness, don’t a LOT of people, without malice aforethought, say Roman Catholic Church when they mean the Latin Rite?
No, I think most refer to the Catholic Church as the “Roman” Catholic Church for one of several reasons. First and foremost because that’s all they have ever heard it referred to as. Second because they assume associating it with Rome is a bad thing. Most non-Catholics have no idea the Catholic Church has many non Latin Rite churches.
Historically speaking, the term “Roman Catholic Church” was a creation of the Church of England who tried to maintain their claim to be part of Catholicism by labeling the Catholic Church as simply the Roman part of the universal Church...sounds familiar doesn’t it?
I did 9th grade one year, and it was really a mixed bag. I had a few who were quite involved, some who were at least unobtrusive, and some who were trouble. A few things really caught on with them, like the class where we met in the dark with candles, sang a song quietly without accompaniment, and read Scripture passages and testimonies about the Holy Spirit. It was based on a prayer meeting of persecuted Christians in China, and some of the students were extremely impressed.
I don’t think it would work with 1st or 2nd graders, but if I ever have 5th grade again, I’ll try it. I taught 5th grade for two years, before I had my son in first grade who needs a lot of encouragement to ask normally. Couldn’t have him calling his teacher a heretic!
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