The Eucharist: The Body of Christ? ("Respectful Dialogue" thread)

Our Sunday Visitor (via Catholic Culture) ^ | 1/2005 | Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.

[big'ol_freeper]

The best way to say it is that it comes down to practice in worship versus belief. The dogmas of faith are the same but the way the Mass (or Divine Liturgy in the Eastern Rite) is said varies. Pope John Paul II referred to the eastern and western rites of the Church as allowing the Catholic Church to “breath with both lungs”.

[trebb]

Not at all am I implying that all healings/miracle of current times are Satanic. I am saying that those who purport to be miracle-workers are likely to be part of Satan's grand scheme of deception. hose of God, who may play a role in an actual miracle will not claim to be the source - they will give all credit to God. I say this because so many try to act as if they are the ones doing the works. For example; a friend of mine says his wife is attending a church where the female pastor claims to have the power to heal her parishioners. She also "speaks in tongues" which of course comes out as pure gibberish which nobody can understand. He said he asked her why she says folks should believe her as the Bible had folks speaking in tongues which were understandable to those of many languages. She told him that she is just on a higher spiritual plane than everyone that can't understand what she claims to be "tongues". I consider her to be a willful aid to Satan because what she says implies she is the one who can do these things and that anyone who doesn't understand or believe is just not as in touch with God as she is.

In the Bible, God says there will be many false prophets whose main goal is to divert people from the true Word. The Bible is meant to be enough to convince people of the Truth, but it was co opted by the "religious" in the early years because many folks couldn't read, and even if they could, they couldn't get their hands on a Bible. Finally, Gutenberg came a long and his first work was to put the Bible in print. There is no need to get confusing about it to be able to be saved, as many would have their "flocks" believe. The Bible speaks pretty clearly to those who will read it and take the time to study what it says, and to also try to do enough study to understand the original audiences so things stay in context. It's really an amazing book if one takes the time to look into how it came into being. I personally believe it is God's Word as He intended for us to have it made available to us and that there are no contradictions that haven't arisen out of misinterpretations, either intended or unintended to led people astray.

Have a good day.

[Quix]

Editing, reading into and distorting my words is not at all remotely in the ball park of what I’d consider

respectful.

But then, I haven’t found a lot of understanding for what my term ‘verbal 2X4’ means even to me . . . even on the part of a lot of Prottys! LOL.

[Quix]

Then I think maybe 75%+ of your posts would have to be removed.

[Petronski]

Clearly Peter was not the rock on which Jesus would build His church....

Such is your interpretation.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: Clearly Peter was not the rock on which Jesus would build His church. And: Neither Scripture or the Catholic Church teaches that the Church was built on Peter.

I respectfully submit that your interpretation of Holy Scripture is fatally flawed.

Clearly Jesus was stating that Peter was the rock upon which He was building His Church, and the Catholic Church has faithfully understood that for over 2,000 years.

[Petronski]

Exodus 20:16

[Quix]

What a mature, growthful and fitting response.

Certainly that was the spirit I used it in.

I could have easily justified several terms which would have been less comfortable.

I chose the most comfortable-to-y’all that I could live with.

Truly, out of charity.

And respect for you and what you’re trying to do with this thread.

[Quix]

Welllllllll, imho, from where I sit, it was not protty’s who crashed through that glass ceiling into the salad bowl beneath.

[suzyjaruki]

Thank you for posting the Queen's quote and for sharing your view. I cannot accept transsubstantiation any more than I can accept mere symbolism.

Right now, today, I am wrestling with the Holy Spirit to give understanding or maybe peace in the acceptance of the plain words of scripture, "this is my body." Still bread & wine, but also truly Christ's body. Difficult.

[Quix]

Indeed. No matter what else a person believes, he must not diminish or forget the Spiritual truth that only God reveals. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – 1 Corinthians 12:3 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. – I John 2:27 We are indeed new Spiritual creatures of God's making. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. – Galatians 2:20 He sustains us. Without Him, we can do nothing. = = = INDEED! INDEED! AMEN! AMEN!

[Quix]

I suspect the definitions are quite subjective. And personally, I would miss what I suspect were intended as perjoratives addressed to me. Since I am not Mormon, I am called "apostate" by them. And since I am not Islamic, I am called "infidel" by them. Because I eschew all the doctrines and traditions of men across the board - including Roman Catholic doctrine and tradition - I am called "heretic" by many. And to believers of a many other things, I am called "cultist" because I believe in Christ Jesus. I have also been called gnostic, Satanist, demon-possessed, psychotic, Jesus freak, etc. And I count it all joy, dear brother in Christ! Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. – Matthew 5:11-12 = = = INDEED! I LAUGHINGLY WHOLESALE AGREE with you. Thanks.

[TheDon]

Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I'd look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I'd still substantially be the same ole guy as when I started.

St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can't be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ's body and blood. A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the "sub-stance", what "stands-under" the surface, came to be called "transubstantiation."

That's quite enlightening for this non-Catholic. Thanks for sharing.

[trebb]

I believe we are to remember Christ's sacrifice by periodically holding a Lord' Supper/Communion, but it is really not much different than the concept of Baptism - it is a public display of our faith and belief in Christ as the Savior.

I understand that the priests don't actually transform the bread and wine, but there is also no reason that Christ does so every time a priest does the ceremony. I don't believe priests as such are even necessary - heads of the local churches are to be teachers of the Word, that we learn it and have the opportunity to become followers of Christ and then to hopefully carry the Word to others. As I see it, the main purpose of churches, as congregations, is to serve as a place for us to gather in worship and learning and to help keep us focused on the Word. "Rabbi" means "teacher" and I feel that folks did too much reading into the Bible to come up with all the requirements laid out in the various religions. The Bible stands on its own.

God Bless

[Quix]

Whereas the fantasy that Peter was somehow the first pope leads men to bow down to other men, and to call other men “Father,” and to blasphemously believe that a human being other than Christ Jesus can be “infallible” in any way, all in contradiction to Scripture.

Error compounding error.

= = =

WELL PUT, imho.

[Quix]

HOWLS OF PROTEST????

I think I didn’t get the memo.

What I read came across more as skeptical murmerings.

[TexasAg]

I don't understand. Are you saying that to discuss a doctrine not essential to salvation is divisive? In any event, I would guess the Doctrine of the Real Presence is "ordinarily necessary" but not absolutely a prerequisite to salvation, but that's my untutored opinion I'm simply asking if this is one of those doctrines that Catholics consider essential for salvation (i.e. do you need to believe the bread is actually becoming flesh when taking communion to be saved). After reading some other threads (esp. the Mary ones), I think it's important to see where someone is coming from.

[Quix]

Seems to me that the RC edifice must have just bought out and distributed WalMart’s entire supply of . . .

shoulder chips.

[NYer]

In observing transubstatiaion it appears to me that it is a mocking of the Holy Spirit.. For we are talking about Jesus becoming flesh again, to be consumed by the flesh, in a fleshly way, for fleshly means.. Like the Holy Spirit(who supposedly makes this happen) comes running like a force of nature under the control of a hierophant.. Basically an elaborate play with a magical ending..

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Look at Scripture!

You can't see air yet you breathe it in. Our Lord was very clear when He instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper, with these words, as recorded by the Apostle, Matthew and the Evangelist, Luke.

Matthew 26:26 - While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body."

Luke 22:19 - Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."

Jesus states that the bread is His body. Since He is God, then that bread has become God. Jesus further states do this. For 2,000 years, Catholics and Orthodox have followed that commandment. After saying the words of Consecration, the priest elevates the host which has now become the Body of Christ. My Lord and my God!

But you, my friends, are not the first nor will you be the last to doubt the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist. The host turned into flesh and the wine coagulated. It wasn't until the 1970's that science had the means to fully examine and document these items. Here are the results:

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

• The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.
  
  
• The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
  
  
• The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.
  
  
• In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
  
  
• The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.
  
  
• The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).
  
  
• In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.
  
  
• In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.
  
  
• The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.

---

 

	Fig. 1 - Eosine x 200. Overall histological aspect of a Flesh sample with fibers collected in bundles with longitudinal orientation as it occurs in the outer surface layers of the heart.
	Fig. 2 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 250. An artery and, very close, a branch of the vagal nerve.
	Fig. 3 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 400. Evidence of the "Rough" aspect of the endocardium; the syncytoid structure of the myocardial tissue
	Fig. 4 - Elution-absorption test x 80. Above: Hemagglutination test on blood sample in Lanciano: on the left, anti A serum used; on the right, anti-B serum. Below: hemoagglutination test on a Flesh sample in Lanciano: left, with anti-A serum, right,with anti-B serum. It appears thus that the Flesh and the Blood in Lanciano belong to AB blood group.
	Fig. 5 - Electro-phoretic pattern of Blood proteins (Cromoscan photometer). The profile of serum fractions is normal and superimposable to that of a fresh serum sample.

In conclusion, it may be said that Science, when called upon to testify, has given a certain and thorough response as regards the authenticity of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.
SOURCE

[markomalley]

What saves us?

God saves us.

Do rites and rituals and good works save us?

Or does Christ's work on the cross alone save us, a fact which is then made known to us by the indwelling Holy Spirit who leads our Christian walk, according to the will and purpose and design of God who gives us the Holy Spirit in the first place?

Exactly. And Christ has provided us seven sacraments through which He regenerates us, spiritually nourishes us, heals our bodies and souls, and builds His Church. All through His work on the cross.