Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley
The Catholic Church teaches that in the Eucharist, the communion wafer and the altar wine are transformed and really become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Have you ever met anyone who has found this Catholic doctrine to be a bit hard to take?
If so, you shouldn't be surprised. When Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6, his words met with less than an enthusiastic reception. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (V 52). "This is a hard saying who can listen to it?" (V60). In fact so many of his disciples abandoned him over this that Jesus had to ask the twelve if they also planned to quit. It is interesting that Jesus did not run after his disciples saying, "Don't go — I was just speaking metaphorically!" How did the early Church interpret these challenging words of Jesus? Interesting fact. One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism. Why? You guessed it. They heard that this sect regularly met to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Did the early Christians say: "wait a minute, it's only a symbol!"? Not at all. When trying to explain the Eucharist to the Roman Emperor around 155AD, St. Justin did not mince his words: "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him . . . is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages. In trying to explain how bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, several theologians went astray and needed to be corrected by Church authority. Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I'd look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I'd still substantially be the same ole guy as when I started.
St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can't be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ's body and blood. A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the "sub-stance", what "stands-under" the surface, came to be called "transubstantiation."
What makes this happen? The power of God's Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: "This is my Body, This is my Blood." Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read "Spirit") whips over the surface of the water and God's Word resounds. "Let there be light" and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation. But why did Jesus arrange for this transformation of bread and wine? Because he intended another kind of transformation. The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: "you are what you eat?" The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.
Our evangelical brethren speak often of an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus. But I ask you, how much more personal and intimate can you get? We receive the Lord's body into our physical body that we may become Him whom we receive! Such an awesome gift deserves its own feast. And that's why, back in the days of Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Assisi, the Pope decided to institute the Feast of Corpus Christi.
Yes, and what would be hard (John 6:60) about it if it were parable or symbolism?
hosepipe made it a point to broad-brush-stroke the label of "Penn and Teller" to include the Reformed:
Nor are Mormons or Scientologists immune to staging mysticism. Judaism has its staged mystics, too. New Age and Eastern religions are mystical per se and often make public displays.
In sum, dear markomalley, I suspect too much water has gone under the bridge around here to achieve "respectful dialogue" because that would require the participants to forgive unconditionally, no strings attached, reading the current post only for what it actually says.
Some have professed a need to take a 2x4 to us, while protesting the suggestion that there be a venue where others could share respectful dialogue.
Or those parties taking part could simply omit references of a pejorative or derogatory nature.
Whether the Eucharist is HOLY has not been determined..
It could be damnation just as easily..
Whether the Holy Spirit is a RCC/EO drone in the Hive is the question..
Who is in charge the HS or the priest?..
Your language is most disrespectful.
Not of Christ's church.
Christ's church is made up of all true believers who have been graced with Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, found in a variety of churches from among all races and nations and eras.
We are told to sit in judgment of error. Transubstantiation is error, according to God's holy word.
Of the Church I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.[1] II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6] III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.[7] IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9] V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12] VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 2:12-16
I think that this is an achievable goal. My understanding of scripture is that not everyone is Christian today, even those who may claim they're Christian. But we have no idea who is and isn't especially in this type of forum. But eventually the vast majority of people WILL be Christian so it just makes sense to respect others in conversation. However, respecting others doesn't mean that you have to agree with incorrect doctrine or compromise belief.
Col 4:5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
Col 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
This is very disrespectful.
(While I doubt it was meant that way...)
You could always assume that our FRiend Quix meant it in the most respectful fashion. Please note this use of the term synonymous with edifice:
1Cr 3:9ff For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building (oikodome...building...or edifice). According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ....
1Cr 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.
If you think about it, it's actually a very Eucharistic analogy:
All of these things were a "type" of Christ...and Christ instituted all of these things for His Church.
So to say the "RC Edifice" is an affirmation, whether intended or not, of the Church in God's plan in the economy of Salvation...and, actually, a very pertinent point in this discussion.
So, while initially taken aback by the comment myself, I have decided to accept it as a badge of honor.
Good grief. who wants to post to threads where obviously, a big chip on a shoulder is brought to the table? just a cursory reading of this thing shows that there are people who are not interested in a discussion whatsoever, but only in jumping out and yelling “gotcha”. Thanks , but no thanks, please nobody ever ping me to these things, thanks
Yes, I don’t think this “respectful dialogue” thing is working, at least not yet.
Snarky comments will be accepted (by me)..
BUT... alas(adjusting glasses)... they will be GRADED..
I give you a "D"...
That statement was intended to be not snarky. It was most straight-forward.
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. – I John 2:27
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. – Galatians 2:20
He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:1-5
I know for myself as I studied the Scriptures concerning the Holy Spirit I realized that certain faiths appeared to disregard the God-ordained work of the Holy Spirit in place of men's actions and desires.
What saves us?
Do rites and rituals and good works save us?
Or does Christ's work on the cross alone save us, a fact which is then made known to us by the indwelling Holy Spirit who leads our Christian walk, according to the will and purpose and design of God who gives us the Holy Spirit in the first place?
"For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord." -- 1 Corinthians 4:4
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