Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley
The Catholic Church teaches that in the Eucharist, the communion wafer and the altar wine are transformed and really become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Have you ever met anyone who has found this Catholic doctrine to be a bit hard to take?
If so, you shouldn't be surprised. When Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6, his words met with less than an enthusiastic reception. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (V 52). "This is a hard saying who can listen to it?" (V60). In fact so many of his disciples abandoned him over this that Jesus had to ask the twelve if they also planned to quit. It is interesting that Jesus did not run after his disciples saying, "Don't go — I was just speaking metaphorically!" How did the early Church interpret these challenging words of Jesus? Interesting fact. One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism. Why? You guessed it. They heard that this sect regularly met to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Did the early Christians say: "wait a minute, it's only a symbol!"? Not at all. When trying to explain the Eucharist to the Roman Emperor around 155AD, St. Justin did not mince his words: "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him . . . is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages. In trying to explain how bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, several theologians went astray and needed to be corrected by Church authority. Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I'd look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I'd still substantially be the same ole guy as when I started.
St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can't be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ's body and blood. A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the "sub-stance", what "stands-under" the surface, came to be called "transubstantiation."
What makes this happen? The power of God's Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: "This is my Body, This is my Blood." Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read "Spirit") whips over the surface of the water and God's Word resounds. "Let there be light" and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation. But why did Jesus arrange for this transformation of bread and wine? Because he intended another kind of transformation. The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: "you are what you eat?" The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.
Our evangelical brethren speak often of an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus. But I ask you, how much more personal and intimate can you get? We receive the Lord's body into our physical body that we may become Him whom we receive! Such an awesome gift deserves its own feast. And that's why, back in the days of Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Assisi, the Pope decided to institute the Feast of Corpus Christi.
Really; I have always called the roman catholic church, the roman catholic church.. It is based in Rome at a separate country (Vatican) and "thinks" it is universal.. Voila roman catholic church.. To call the roman catholic church the Universal(catholic) Church is either dumb or arrogant.. The Universal CHurch would include the roman catholic chutch the EO and all reformed churchs.. One Pope made a slipshod attempt at doing that but failed.. You know, making the roman catholic church all inclusive.. with/by semantics.. but the roman catholic church remains a denomination nevertheless.. The old boy failed..
For our own sake!
It is my observation and respectful belief that only a satanist would say that.
Absolutely.. I do that myself.. Speaking what I observe,..
It takes just one person, determined to destroy the concept with constant cries of "disrespect", to make the concept fail.
It has failed!
As I just did in my previous post.
Actually, what destroys a thread calling for Respectful Dialogue is disrespect.
By analogy, you think that the cancer patient is afflicted by the doctor who makes the diagnosis, rather than the disease itself.
You mean a heretic?.. You are correct I am a heretic..
In John ch 10 Jesus speaks of the Sheep pens.. Thats what one sheep pen calls those in a another sheep pen.. heretics.. But then, the Flock is NOT in the sheep pen.. the flock is outside the sheep pens grazing with the shepherd..
The heirling shepherds in the sheep pen distract form the sheperds voice.. For they preach Satans Gospel.. learn of the good and the bad (Gen ch 1-3) and you will no longer need God,, but can determine good and evil(dogma) for themselves.. And if not, "we"(heirling) will forgive your transgressions in the confession booth..
Perhaps a refresher in forum rules would be in order . . .
avoid bringing negative junk from thread to thread—particularly in a personally assaultive way. Stalking is not allowed.
And philosophical carried-over whining is not any more attractive.
I was abiding by the rules of the RESPECTFUL DIALOGUE with as close to an upper limit of respectfulness as my conscience would allow.
I was carrying on a dialogue per markomalley’s request on his topic.
Out of the blue comes this seemingly routine, reflexive, shrill, whine about “RC edifice” being perceived and labeled as disrespectful.
Guess what . . . demons are likely to be serving snowcones at the ice-skating pond in hell before some folks approve of my posting on an RC thread in any way, shape, or form. That’s not exactly new information.
Personally, I think some folks need to take some attitudes to the cross and make things right in their hearts and in Christian relationships before uttering/typing another public word.
I have no trouble at all loving the fiercest amongst the RC’s. Doesn’t mean I think much of the attitudes represented so chronically by all such.
So what.
My posting even quite deliberately and earnestly in a respectful manner and tone while according to my conscience and reading of Scripture has proven to be intolerable to a few RC’s who are evidently bitterly and resentfully intent, determined to carry grudges and carry hostilities from thread to thread wherever and whenever they find my screen name.
Are they really so clueless as to expect me to respect THAT????
I should not have said that. The more fair formulation:
By analogy, that is like saying the cancer patient is afflicted by the doctor who makes the diagnosis, rather than the disease itself.
The precedent I’ve observed on this RESPECTFUL DIALOGUE thread is that
it was an RC
who first and most harshly and most in-your-facely
violated the spirit and intent of the designation.
That, however, is pretty traditionally true hereon. Sadly.
I haven’t observed that you seem to understand more than 0.00001% about me or about what I have to say.
You are entitled to your observations.
Even without the exaggeration, this is not my failing.
One of the best approaches was provided by our Holy Father when he met with a group of children, who had received their First Holy Communion, in 2005. This so impressed me that I included it in my letter to parish families whose children will be receiving First Eucharist next Sunday.
3. Andrea
In preparing me for my First Communion day, my catechist told me that Jesus is present in the Eucharist. But how? I can't see him!
No, we cannot see him, but there are many things that we do not see but they exist and are essential. For example: we do not see our reason, yet we have reason. We do not see our intelligence and we have it. In a word: we do not see our soul and yet it exists and we see its effects, because we can speak, think and make decisions, etc. Nor do we see an electric current, for example, yet we see that it exists; we see this microphone, that it is working, and we see lights. Therefore, we do not see the very deepest things, those that really sustain life and the world, but we can see and feel their effects. This is also true for electricity; we do not see the electric current but we see the light.
So it is with the Risen Lord: we do not see him with our eyes but we see that wherever Jesus is, people change, they improve. A greater capacity for peace, for reconciliation, etc., is created. Therefore, we do not see the Lord himself but we see the effects of the Lord: so we can understand that Jesus is present. And as I said, it is precisely the invisible things that are the most profound, the most important. So let us go to meet this invisible but powerful Lord who helps us to live well.
CATECHESES OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
As for describing the sensation one feels, an extraordinary grace was given me several years ago. I have never doubted the Real Presence and always sat as close as possible to the Tabernacle at my former parish. There was some liturgical abuse in this parish and I had even won a battle against liturgical dance. But that Sunday, the scales tipped when I watched a EMHC drop a consecrated host on the floor of the Sancturary. She hesitated, unsure of what to do, then turned towards the pastor for guidance. He met her gaze then averted his eyes, leaving the decision up to her. I'm from the old school where the Mass ground to a screeching halt when a host accidentally fell and was shocked at her decision. She bent over, picked it up and redeposited it in her Pyrex glass communion bowl. It was more than I could bear. Bowing my head in prayer, I asked our Lord to guide me to a holy priest, a reverent liturgy and a community where whatever my God-given talents could be of service.
That same day, I went through the Yellow Pages and compiled a list of other RC parishes within a certain radius of home and noted the Mass times. A fellow freeper suggested including any Eastern Catholic parishes that might be here. There were 2 - Maronite and Ukrainian. I added them to the list. Each Sunday I would attend Mass at a different RC parish, always repeating that prayer. I had no idea how I would recognize the answer but trusted that it would be made known to me.
Several weeks into this program, the Maronite Church popped up on the list. The small Church was lovely and the liturgy was beautiful though disorienting. When it was time to go to communion, I joined the one and only line that snaked up to the priest. In the Maronite Church, communion is by intinction and on the tongue - there are no EMHCs - only the priest distributes communion. As the priest placed the intincted host on my tongue, a 'surge' swept through my body from head to toe. Looking back, I recall thinking - "Wow, this priest really knows how to confect the Eucharist!" I left the church that day with a sense of peace I had never known and it lasted for days.
The following Sunday, I pulled out my list. Next up was the Ukrainian Church. It was also my birthday. Recalling that sense of peace from the previous week, I decided to return to the Maronite Church, as a gift to myself. Some of the parishioners remembered me from the previous week and smilingly nodded as they went by. I even recognized some of the chanted prayers and hummed along. Once again I joined the communion line. The instant the priest placed the intincted host on my tongue, there was again this 'surge' that swept through me. It was so intense that my knees buckled and I had to grab on to the end of the pew to regain my balance. When I left the Church that Sunday, I was again overwhelmed with a tremendous sense of peace that lasted the entire week.
During the week I reflected back on these extraordinary experiences. So slow to catch on, I hit myself on the side of the head and I finally grasped their significance. When the following Sunday rolled around, I pulled out the list, tore it up and returned to the Maronite Church.
PS - That was 4 years ago. In the span of that time, the RC bishop has closed ALL of the parishes on my list. It was indeed in this Church that our Lord answered that prayer. The pastor is a very holy man, ordained only 7 years ago. The reverence of their liturgy defies description - one must expereince it. As for my God-given abilities, they were put to use within a short time - assisting in obtaining a grant for the Church where we will eventually move, serving as lector, VP for the women's auxiliary, parish council member and now, Director for Religous Education. In the midst of the local RC diocese, this Maronite Church is like an oasis and word has spread about the wonderful work emanating from this tiny Church.
BTW - the 3rd time I went up for communion, there was no 'surge'. But by then I knew I had arrived at the answer to my prayer. God acts in extraordinary ways - sometime it takes the form of particular graces.
I’ve come across many FReepers of different faiths with whom you can have a respectful dialogue. And there are those who are not able.
Can I ask if this is one of those beliefs that Catholics believe you must hold in order to be saved? If not, it seems to me this whole discussion does little but to divide Christians.
Thank you for sharing that!
The VAST majority, I daresay.
And there are those who are not able.
Sadly.
What a world it would be if we followed that simple commandment.
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