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To: Boagenes
Not sure I can answer all your concerns, but I'll have a shot at some of them.

As it happens, I read Greek (studied Classical, but Koine is not difficult after 5th c. Athenian and Homeric Greek, just different).

The translation 'full of grace' is a fairly accurate translation of the Greek word kecaritwmenh. It's a verb, and a particular type of verb - a perfect passive participle, which means a state that has continued for an indefinite time and continues in the present and for the foreseeable future. "Completely and for always graced" is, however, a translation that is not very graceful in English.

That doesn't mean, of course, that the grace bestowed upon Mary by God from always was in any way due to her personal merit. But it stands to reason that God would make sure by His own power that the woman who was chosen to bear Him in her womb for nine months and entrusted with His earthly rearing would be pure and holy, the new Ark of the Covenant. ("No special place or power outside of this status?" What on earth could be more special or powerful than to have the awesome and unbearable responsibility of bearing and raising God? Of course Mary had to have divine help and grace to fulfill this otherwise impossible task!)

You have seriously misunderstood the Catholic concept of 'grace'. Your description is downright creepy, and totally unlike anything I have ever heard from a reputable Catholic source (of course, there are plenty of misguided and misinformed people around in the Catholic church, like every other church around, but you can hardly judge the doctrine of a church by one or two confused laymen, especially when the actual belief is laid out plainly in the Catechism for all to read!)

When a bunch of busybodies interrupt you while you're teaching and tell you your mom is outside, and you correct them for interrupting you (and incidentally for missing the entire point of what you are saying), you are not dissing your mom, who isn't there to hear. Neither are you dissing your mom when you correct a bunch of female groupies who are engaging in the usual over-the-top Middle-Eastern hyperbole ("blessed is the womb that bore thee . . ") without thinking about what they are saying.

Consider that, when Mary asked Jesus to help out an embarassed bridegroom at Cana, he remonstrated with her but helped anyway, with something as mundane as running out of wine and the resultant loss of face at the wedding . . . . and he did not say, "what does this have to do with me?", he said ti emoi kai soi - "what does this have to do with you AND me?" - why is this important to us? But - as he praised the response of the Syrio-Phoenician woman to his apparently disapproving question about dogs and bread, here he approved because he went ahead and did as Mary asked.

Consider also that, since Jesus was perfect, he perfectly fulfilled all the Commandments, including "Honor thy father and thy mother."

67 posted on 04/26/2008 1:06:07 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
Just a quick note, I'll have time to reply in total, later. I have just begun to learn Koine. I'm working on the alphabet and basics of the language. It's a lot of fun, and I can't wait to get further along with it. I've already got my Greek New Testament on order.

Second, that description of "grace" does, indeed, sound creepy...and yet that is my understanding of the Catholic belief about grace. Whenever I hear a discussion of grace from Catholics, it always comes across to me like I described. Maybe it's me, but it does sound like that kind of concept, to me, and it does, as you said, sound exceedingly creepy to me.

68 posted on 04/26/2008 2:09:40 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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