Posted on 04/22/2008 2:00:13 PM PDT by annalex
Okay, I can see that as a denominational analog. The problem is that interpreting it that way makes all the Scriptures that presume Church authority and discipline, moot.
“The only people you will find that easily cast aside their theological distinctives in favor of “unity” are the liberals.”
No, I expect nothing of the kind. There are three instructions given by St. Paul in the Romans 14:
“Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” (about whatever denominational issues)
-and-
“Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.”
[not exactly fulfilled by acrimonious exchanges about denominational issues]
-and-
The Roman 14 quote oft-repeated above about how to work through these things.
Yes, this was the original denominational fight -— kosher, not kosher -— circumsize, not circumsize, etc. It rang loudly to me because I spent most of my life under the Law. (Again, I was raised Jewish. Remain Jewish, I suppose.)
“The problem is that interpreting it that way makes all the Scriptures that presume Church authority and discipline, moot.”
Ah, read on (R14,v23):
. . . So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
To parallel to more modern denominational issues, if you are a Roman Catholic, you are subject to Church discipline for variance.
(And if you are a Baptist, you shouldn’t drink booze. Etc.)
And for the record, I don’t think all denominations are equal. Some are surely better than others!
I do think, however, that most Christians are largely ignorant of huge portions of the Bible that almost all denominations agree on.
I see nothing wrong with grabbing that low-hanging fruit, then worrying about predestination and all the arcane stuff later.
“By grace alone through faith” is the Catholic teaching (it is, after all in the Catholic scripture!). By faith alone is not — it is, not coincidentally, proclaimed false in the scripture.
Catholics don’t worship loaves of bread either. They recognize Christ in the consecrated host, as St. Paul teaches, the words they utter are the same St. Thomas uttered recognizing Christ, and consecrated bread is what was left the Apostles at Emmaus after they asked Christ to stay with them.
I fully expect you to have some convoluted interpretation of your own of the scripture I quoted, but to be unaware of the Catholic explanation for it after 25 years of study is odd.
Yes, -- in other words there are no genuine factions, only heresies.
Like getting rid of everything that might slow the modern man down on his way to Sunday football: confession, fasting, monastic life, undissoluble marriage, abhorrence of contraception, weekly Mass...
That was not a denominational fight, MWT. The judaizers were the first heretics, and that heresy was put down in the Scriptures themselves in no small part by Paul himself.
I see nothing wrong with grabbing that low-hanging fruit, then worrying about predestination and all the arcane stuff later.
Fair enough, but wouldn't that kind of thing encourage the "novice to be lifted up with pride" as in 1 Ti 3:6?
These are good examples of gentility, yes. Interestingly, I remember what this forum was like before the caucus system was introduced: every thread on veneration of Mary or the saints was trashed and ridiculed. I would never think of barging into a Protestant discussion and teach them what to think, in the name of gentility, and as a good Christian that I strive to be. But it doesn’t mean that important differences cannot be discussed when it is appropriate: I posted this and similar threads for such discussion, and judging by the responses I see, public and private, people enjoy the discussion.
“Like getting rid of everything that might slow the modern man down on his way to Sunday football: confession, fasting, monastic life, undissoluble marriage, abhorrence of contraception, weekly Mass...”
***********
Wrong. Bible-believing Christian follow the Scriptures as their one rule of life.
There are plenty of half hearted Protestants whose religion is just for show - just like there are multitudes of Catholics who go to church once a year.
Put your money where your mouth is. Show how historic evangelical or protestant Christianity is “easy” in a negative sense.
We can fling half hearted and liberal examples at each other all day.
I have the scripture and the evidence of the leadership of the Holy Spirit in the existence and glory of my 2000 year old Church, and I venerate Mary the Mother of God daily as does my entire Church. The Rosary we pray wins battles and converts people to Christ. What, I repeat the question, has Calvin got?
“but to be unaware of the Catholic explanation for it after 25 years of study is odd.”
I am not unaware of it.
I just find it to be without Scriptural support.
****************
“... and consecrated bread is what was left the Apostles at Emmaus after they asked Christ to stay with them.”
Now there’s some poor exegesis.
I agree that there is much to agree upon, but isn’t it like “the Sun set in the West today AGAIN” type of exercise?
Your premise is Protestant: that people can figure out the more difficult passages of the scripture by themselves, without patristic study. The Protestant disunity shows the futility of the exercise. Before there was the Holy Scripture there was the Church that kept and obeyed the Word in her bosom. That is what needs to be studied, not what a middle class American can think up from reading the Bible.
“The Rosary we pray wins battles and converts people to Christ. What, I repeat the question, has Calvin got? “
The Scriptures, on the pages within which we find God commanding,
“This is my beloved SON. Hear ye him.”
I think such behavior is indicitive of the "once saved, always saved" menality. Like moslems, they seem to believe "innocence" is a function of group identity rather than behavior.
I did not mean to say that all Protestants have it easy, — but I did enumerate things that the Catholics are supposed to obey, and the Protestants do not have a similar requirement.
All those divisions sure don't argue for their commitment to tough it out...
What's poor about it? Christ explained the scriptures. They asked Christ to stay. He consecrated bread and left. They recognized Him in the breaking of the bread but not in the person of the pilgrim. This essentially describes the Mass: the scripture is explained, and Christ, my Lord and my God, is recognised in the consecrated bread held by the priest, the Christ unseen.
Such a standard shows unfamiliarity with the word of God. The Holy Spirit Himself testifies the scriptures are not the entirety of God's word.
Calvin spent his pitiful life explaining away the numerous passages of the scripture that disagree with him.
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