A Convert's Response to Friends

The Coming Home Network ^ | Robert E. Day

[annalex]

A Convert's Response
to Friends

From a letter by Robert E. Day

Though this issue is devoted to Mary, we thought it would be helpful to include this more general apologetics article written by a lay convert to his friends.

Dear Folks,

Because you are among several folks who are worried that we have fallen off the Christian cliff, I thought that this record of an interchange with Internet friends who had similar concerns might ease your anxiety about our salvation prospects. It is important to understand that we are not writing this to try to convert you, but to hopefully neutralize your prejudices so if any other friend converts, you can say "Gee Whiz, that is wonderful" as opposed to "You poor lost soul." Here is the interchange:

Friend: How can you join the Roman Catholic Church when the Pope has all that authority over you and what right has he to lead the Church anyhow?

Response: A marvelous question that many Evangelicals have and a critical question for the validity of the Catholic Church as the Church of Jesus Christ. To begin with, at Caesarea/Philippi at the rock above the source of the Jordan River and on which there was a statue of one of the Pagan Gods, Jesus Christ told Peter that, he, Peter was the rock, and on this rock, Jesus would build his Church as recorded in Mt:16, 18. Furthermore, Jesus gave him the Keys to the Kingdom, (vs.19), which is a reference back to Isaiah 22 referring to the office of Prime Minister. This essentially made Peter the first Vicar of Christ. In other words when the King gave the Keys to the Kingdom to the Prime Minister, it was meant to be for the office and to be handed on to the successors. Since then 262 Popes have succeeded Peter to this day. One more reference is helpful: at the end of the Book of John 21:17, Jesus, after asking Peter three times if he loved him, then told him to "feed my sheep".

Friend: Interesting, but where in the Bible is there evidence that Peter assumed his position as Prime Minister?

Response: Good question since we need to verify these claims either in the Bible or in the Church traditions. In the Book of Acts of the Apostles, Peter showed us that he was the Chief Apostle in several places: (1) In Ch. 1, Peter was in charge of filling the Office vacated by Judas; (2) after Pentecost in Ch. 2, it was Peter who explained the meaning of Pentecost to the people; (3) in Ch. 3 Peter healed the crippled beggar, then gave a long speech explaining the need to repent and believe; (4) in Ch. 4 Peter made the presentation to the Sanhedrin standing firm against their threats; (5) in Ch. 15 Peter led the first Jerusalem Council to settle a controversy when certain Jewish Christians demanded that the Gentiles be circumcised; and (6) in Ch. 10 Peter was given the vision by God to go to Cornelius and baptize him and his family. Peter went to Rome and with the help of Paul built the Christian body. It would take too long here for all of the references, but the first, second, third, fourth and later century fathers, in their writings, refer to Peter as the first Pope: i.e. Iraneous, Polycarp, Ignatius, Martyr, Origin, Augustine and others. Their letters are available for reading. (A good summary of these important references can be found in "Jesus, Peter and the Keys" (Queenship) by Butler, Dahlgren and Hess)

Friend: You exhausted me with that answer, and let’s suppose I reluctantly agree, but I plan to read the Church Fathers to verify your assertions because I have not been told about such proofs by my local pastor. But we still have problems: you people are not allowed to read the Bible.

Response: We hear that all the time and it persists from the old days when a) there were no Bibles to read, b) illiteracy prevailed, c) many printed Bibles contained both accidental and intentional misprints, and d) there was a fear that the same results would prevail as occurred in Protestantism. There are now estimated to be over 25,000 Christian denominations and groups in the world because of so many interpretations of the Bible. The Catholic Catechism, Article 3, clearly states that Catholics are encouraged to read and study the Bible. In fact, we had six different adult Bible Classes on the Acts of the Apostles at my Parish this fall and they will resume in the Spring.

Friend: I guess my sources have been incorrect or biased, certainly uninformed. But there is more. I understand that you Catholics have to try to work your way to heaven, and that is not Biblical according to my Bible. Also, you add tradition to your bag of tricks where we Evangelicals believe in salvation by Faith Alone and Bible Alone without the traditions of men.

Response: The cry of the Reformation was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Yet the Bible states nowhere that we are saved by faith alone or that the only source of Christianity is the Bible alone. So neither of these solas are in the Bible. In fact James 2:24 clearly states that we are NOT saved by faith alone but by faith and works. This is confirmed in many places including Galatians 5:6 "faith working by charity." Second Timothy 3:16 is the verse most often quoted by Evangelicals to prove Bible Alone, but the letters to Timothy had not even been written until near the end of Paul’s tenure, so his reference was to the Old Testament. Paul did not say that the Old Testament scriptures were the only source, only that they were inspired and profitable. As to tradition, Catholics do not believe in traditions of men but in Sacred Tradition. An example is the Trinity which is not in the Bible per se. In the early centuries there was no final collection of letters called the New Testament so Christian Truth had to be passed on by Tradition. It was by word of mouth as Paul says in II Thessalonians 2:15, "follow the TRADITIONS I have taught you." We learn a great deal about the Traditions of the Church from the early Fathers. You will discover this when you read their writings. And it is interesting to read the last Chapter, verse 25 of the Book of John, where he talks about the many things that are not written. If you believe what he says you might conclude that the Bible is not the only source of truth. There is one caution, though, about reading the writings of the early Church Fathers (some of whom were witnesses of the disciples, i.e. Polycarp was a friend of John). The great Anglican convert, Cardinal John Newman, warned that you cannot remain Protestant if you read and study the history of the Church.

Friend: Frankly I don’t like the idea of a central Church and Pope telling me what to do.

Response: In this day and age no one seems to like to yield to authority; they would rather do their own thing, or whatever feels good. But remember that the Church is the body of Christ. And as the Vicar of Christ, the Pope is speaking for him. The interpretations as reproduced in the Catechism and in Encyclicals that are presented to the faithful serve to provide a proper understanding of doctrine. The encyclicals usually are written and the councils called as a result of heretic challenges as a means of clarification of the Biblical, Traditional, and Church view. For example, the Council of Jerusalem followed the circumcision question and the Council of Trent followed the Reformation heresies.

Friend: You seem to have an answer for everything and frankly I am startled to learn of your responses. There are many more problems, however. You have all of these so-called Sacraments whereas we don’t have to be bothered with them. Why don’t you tell me why they are necessary?

Response: All right, let’s explore them one at a time starting with Baptism—including Infant Baptism, which is always good for a debate. You will note in the Book of Acts that early Christians were Baptized after they repented and received Jesus. In Ch 16 Paul baptized the jailer and his entire family, as did Peter with the household of Cornelius who was the first Gentile Christian. We can assume that there were children in the family, thus infants were undoubtedly baptized. John 3:5 says that a man (pardon the male chauvinism) must be born again of the water and the spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven. The Catholic belief, based on Bible exegesis and Tradition is that water baptism removes original sin through the mystical combination of the water and the spirit.

Friend: I’ve got you on that one, as even Catholics believe that they are sinners. How could they be considered sinners if original sin was removed at Baptism?

Response: The Catholic Church teaches that God leaves us with concupiscence, which is the ability to sin as we go through life, otherwise we would all be robots. The challenge for mankind is to fight diligently to overcome the sinful desires and temptations in order to gain our place in God’s kingdom. He gives us a free will to accept or reject his grace, and it is only through God’s grace that we have the power to resist. If we lead a sinful life, God punishes us by letting us go, and in so doing we become addicted to whatever sin we choose and can lose our salvation. He will always allow us back into his flock, but only if we repent and sin no more, e.g. the Prodigal Son.

Friend: You are a difficult person to back into a corner, but let’s explore some more of your Sacraments. I understand marriage and am upset that many of the Evangelicals do not consider it a sacred vow, or covenant, with God. In that respect I am Catholic already. And Confirmation makes sense to me also. But there is this problem with the Eucharist. I am convinced that it is symbolic and I cannot go along with the idea of eating flesh and drinking blood. At our Church, we have communion once a month or so, which should suffice for a symbolic gesture. I am sure you agree with that, right?

Response: Wrong....the Eucharist seems to be difficult for you Evangelicals probably because you do not study your Bible in all the key places where it is explained. It started back when Abraham went to the High Priest Melchizedek who gave him bread and wine. And it is present in the Passover feast, and certainly it is very clear at the Last Supper as described in the Gospels. You will note as you read the early Church Fathers that not only was infant baptism followed, but the Eucharist was also celebrated with a belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ. To understand this you must read John 6, the entire chapter, very slowly and prayerfully. You will note in vs 50 that Jesus refers to the bread that comes down from heaven after the ascension. This is to calm their fears of cannibalism. So it is heavenly bread and blood that he is referring to. Six times in the chapter he tells them to eat his flesh and drink his blood and note that all but the twelve walk away. He did not say, "Hey fellows I did not mean it literally, come on back." No, he let them go. Don’t you think if it were meant to be a symbolic gesture he would have stopped them? The Eucharist is the heart of the Mass and we believe that Jesus Christ is present with us in the consecrated bread and wine. Even Martin Luther believed in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Friend: I guess I’ll have to read and study John 6 to verify your assertions. Evangelicalism is a lot simpler: all I have to do is say the Sinner’s prayer and I’m given a non-revocable ticket to heaven; have faith and I will automatically do good works, but whether or not I do good works, it doesn’t matter, as my salvation is imputed, as RC Sproul claims. Now for another point that you brought up. You brought it up, so don’t blame me. I have been told that the Mass is a pagan ritual and certainly not Biblical.

Response: I would certainly like to know who you have been talking to, for they certainly were not talking about the Roman Catholic Church. I hate to burst your bubble but according to the Bible your sense of security is a false one. The Bible is very clear about justification and sanctification being a journey that can lead us to salvation but it is also clear that we must work hard through God’s grace in obedience to His will throughout our life. Can you imagine the God of the Bible accepting a dedicated sinner, although claiming to be Born Again, who is unrepentant, into his kingdom? Even Paul talks about how he struggles to do good and fails and has to keep trying. Why would he bother if he already had his ticket? Regarding the Mass, it is what makes Catholicism so beautiful. Nearly every word in the Mass is from the Bible, except the Homily. Not only do we read from the Old and New Testaments but we sing the Psalms, the Lord’s Prayer and we repeat the Nicene Creed. And as an aside, have you ever noticed near the end of the Creed "one (not 25,000) Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church? As stated above, there is a continuous apostolic succession of 262 Popes up to our present John Paul II. And have you ever encountered such a Holy Man, and with the courage of a Lion? He even has the courage to fight off the militant feminists.

Friend: I must say that I am exhausted and bewildered as I have not been told any of what you have stated above; in fact, quite the opposite. But you will have to admit that you worship Mary. (Got you on that one I bet.) And why do you have all those statues?

Response: Again, you have a misconception of what Catholics believe. You must tell me who taught you all of these terrible untruths; I don’t blame you for thinking I fell off the cliff. The Catholic Church believes that Mary was ever virgin and the Mother of Jesus. As a Mother, she nurtured Jesus as a boy and was faithfully with him to the end. It is difficult for Catholics to understand why Protestant mothers would be troubled in honoring Mary, the greatest mother of them all who, as the second Eve, was obedient to the Lord, whereas Eve disobeyed God. As a loving Mother, she is asked to intercede for us when praying to Jesus. We know, as do you, that we must go to the Father through the Son per John 6 (vs. 30f). And Catholics certainly can pray to Jesus directly. But we do not hesitate to ask those who are close to Jesus to put in a good word. I would guess that this happens in every family when the children suspect that the father will say no, they go to the mother first. In fact, you, yourself will ask friends to pray for you or someone you know. How much greater is it to ask Mary, the Mother of Jesus, to intercede for us? We believe that the Catholic Church is a Covenant Family with God the Father, Jesus the Son, Mary our Mother and we His children. Regarding the statues, you will agree, I am certain, that they are beautiful reminders of our Lord and the Saints. I bet that you have family pictures in your house as a reminder of family and friends. (And what was that nativity scene I saw in front of your church last Christmas?)

Friend: You have given me food for thought/ After digesting this I’ll be back to ask more questions, as it is evident that I may have been misled. But I am not going to give in without a struggle and an in-depth study—right?

Response: Right—you must find out for yourself and not rely on the words of mere men like me. I urge you to read, study, and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. You will find the Catholic faith to be a rich and deeply holy faith. And it has taken many hours of study of Catholic writings, early history, and the Bible, plus listening to the teachings on EWTN of people like Fr. Benedict Groeschel and other brilliant and well educated men, in addition to discussions with Catholic friends, to gather the meager understanding I’ve secured so far. May our Lord richly bless you in your struggles and study!

 

Robert, and his wife Sylvia are both converts to the Catholic Church.

 

[Pyro7480]

It means that one doesn't need many words to get his point across, unlike you it seems.

In other words, "a picture speaks a thousand words."

"Viva Cristo Rey" or "Long Live Christ the King" has been the slogan of Catholic counter-revolutionaries for many years. I shouted it as I encountered your brethren after the papal Mass. The Sacred Heart of Jesus has been the emblem of Catholic counter-revolutionaries since the French Revolution.

The banner itself belonged to the Cristeros of Mexico, who fought the atheistic, socialistic regime in Mexico in the 1920s.

Here's another, made by Freeper B-Chan:

[Quix]

I can certainly can be faulted for using many words.

Angel-Gal has wisely exhorted me about that more than once.

Alas, I’m doubtful that on average, the malady will be greatly cured.

Glad you didn’t miss a chance for a personal slam. Thanks.
Appreciate the points.

[annie laurie]

I can’t recall the last time I saw any Roman Catholic FReeper post a comment that would indicate they love and revere anyone except Mary; if any Roman Catholic FReeper has made a statement recently that speaks of their love and reverence for the Lord Jesus Christ, please ping me to it.

Joya, I have to admit that I was shocked to read this, so much so that I actually read it twice to make sure that I hadn't misread it. I spend relatively little time on the forums (I realize that some posters are here all day long during the workday, while I don't have that luxury) ... my point being that even a sporadic reader such as myself has seen Catholics express their love, worship, adoration, etc, for Christ ... not just occasionally, but many, many times.

In approximately 5 minutes of searching, I found four examples of such, all posted within the last 7 days. Now, if I found four such examples in only five minutes of searching, I think I can confidently extrapolate that there are many more such examples available to anyone who wishes to perform a more thorough search.

Here are the examples which I found just now (I'm pinging all the original posters and referenced posters as a courtesy). Please note that the posts are made by four separate Catholic Freepers:

Post #300: "Just to put a point on your excellent post, we adore only the Holy Trinity, we venerate/honor His Mother, our Mother.":

Post #300

Post #35: "We do not worship Mary. When we kneel as a congregation during the liturgy of the eucharist, we worship Jesus in the remembrance of the Last Supper, and the promise of eternal life through His sacrifice. We do not worship Mary."

Post #35

Post #17: "We worship God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - The Trinity)"

Post #17

Post #133: Background: A previous poster made the statement that "There are no [Catholic] Church's dedicated to "Jesus" or "Christ" or "the Holy Ghost", or anything like that. Just about every church is dedicated to Mary."
A Catholic poster then responds with a list of no less than 38 churches in just two dioceses which are named after "one or more of the Persons of the Holy Trinity, or after some aspect of Jesus’ life or mission", thus amply demonstrating the fallacy of the prior poster's claim.
I'm including this example, since Boagenes' complaint (i.e., that there are no Catholic churches named after Christ, and that most are named after Mary), seemed reminiscent of yours, above.

Post #133

Hopefully the above examples will serve in some small way in putting to rest your misunderstanding that Catholic Freepers do not express love or reverence for Christ. I'm absolutely certain that additional examples are readily available by means of a search, if you wish/need further reassurance. Again, it took only a very few minutes for me to search out the four examples listed above.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: Alas, I’m doubtful that on average, the malady will be greatly cured.

Nor would I wish it to be. You display an enthusiasm that is wonderful. It is a welcome contrast to, despited protestations (no pun intended) from others, blatant undeniable (as hard as they try) bigotry. The difference is quite obvious to anyone on the receiving end.

[Quix]

Have you collected together all the defenses of and adorations of Mary in the same amount of time?

[Quix]

It humbles and touches me deeply that you’d notice and register such. Honored and happy to take you at your word.

Thanks.

May your weekend be particularly enriching in every meaningful way and especially relationally and spiritually.

By God’s Grace, Spirit, Person.

[Running On Empty]

Thanks so much, Anmie Laurie.

We all should always be at the service of truth, for it is He who called Himself “the Way, the Truth and the Life.”

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: Have you collected together all the defenses of and adorations of Mary in the same amount of time?

Not sure that is a fair request. Protestations against Christ’s Church rarely directly attack Christ (even though attacks against the Church are actually attacks against Christ), therefore the need to make statements particularly to defend Jesus are rare. On the other hand, there are ample opportunities to have to defend those the Christ loves from what are usually mis characterizations, to include the Blessed Mother.

[Pyro7480]

Protestations against Christ’s Church rarely directly attack Christ (even though attacks against the Church are actually attacks against Christ), therefore the need to make statements particularly to defend Jesus are rare.

At least on FR.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: At least on FR

Exactly.

[annie laurie]

Have you collected together all the defenses of and adorations of Mary in the same amount of time?

Why would that be necessary? Joya's specific request was as follows:

I can’t recall the last time I saw any Roman Catholic FReeper post a comment that would indicate they love and revere anyone except Mary; if any Roman Catholic FReeper has made a statement recently that speaks of their love and reverence for the Lord Jesus Christ, please ping me to it.

Joya expressed her specific wish to be pinged to Catholic posts which demonstrated love and reverence for Christ.

Joya also made it plain that she was already aware of the existence of posts which expressed love for Mary (see bolded section above). Therefore, it would be completely silly (and a waste of both my time and hers) to gather examples of posts indicating love for Mary.

[annie laurie]

We all should always be at the service of truth, for it is He who called Himself “the Way, the Truth and the Life.”

A hearty AMEN to this :)

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: IF, however, some RC’s are going to claim that RC’s post Marion adorations, glorifications, praisings, venerations strictly and only to poke them in the face of Prottys for the tweaky fun of it, I doubt that many Prottys would think much of such an assertion.

Catholics certainly revere Mary and give her the love and respect that the Blessed Mother deserves, but every minute of every day He is worshiped in fullness in Catholic Churches in a way that no Protestant church is capable of and in fulfillment of Sacred Scripture.

"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts.(Malachi 1:11)

[Quix]

I know.

But it was the sort of thing I might have done, in your shoes. So, I thought I’d ask.

I’d already communicated to Joya that there were such.

[Quix]

Me 3.

[big'ol_freeper]

Continuing (thought I’d make a long post) with how the early Church viewed Malachi 1:11:

The Didache, 70-90 AD

But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations. (Didache, 14)

Apostolic Constitutions, 80-120 AD

Instead of a bloody sacrifice, He has appointed that reasonable and unbloody mystical one of His body and blood, which is performed to represent the death of the Lord by symbols. Instead of the divine service confined to one place, He has commanded and appointed that He should be glorified from sunrising to sunsetting in every place of His dominion. (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book VI, cap. 23)

. On the day of the resurrection of the Lord, that is, the Lord’s day, assemble yourselves together, without fail, giving thanks to God, and praising Him for those mercies God has bestowed upon you through Christ, and has delivered you from ignorance, error, and bondage, that your sacrifice may be unspotted, and acceptable to God, who has said concerning His universal Church: “In every place shall incense and a pure sacrifice be offered unto me; for I am a great King, saith the Lord Almighty, and my name is wonderful among the heathen.” (ibid., Book VII, cap. 30)

St. Justin Martyr, 150-160 AD

God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord: but ye profane it.’ [So] He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we glorify His name, and that you profane [it]. (Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew, 41)

Accordingly, God, anticipating all the sacrifices which we offer through this name, and which Jesus the Christ enjoined us to offer, i.e., in the Eucharist of the bread and the cup, and which are presented by Christians in all places throughout the world, bears witness that they are well-pleasing to Him. But He utterly rejects those presented by you and by those priests of yours, saying, ‘And I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles (He says); but ye profane it.’ (ibid., 117)

St. Irenaeus, 180-190 AD

Again, giving directions to His disciples to offer to God the first-fruits ... He took that created thing, bread, and gave thanks, and said, “This is My body.” And the cup likewise ... He confessed to be His blood, and taught the new oblation of the new covenant; which the Church receiving from the apostles, offers to God throughout all the world ... concerning which Malachi, among the twelve prophets, thus spoke beforehand: “I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord Omnipotent, and I will not accept sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun, unto the going down [of the same], My name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is My name among the Gentiles, saith the Lord Omnipotent” - indicating in the plainest manner, by these words, that the former people [the Jews] shall indeed cease to make offerings to God, but that in every place sacrifice shall be offered to Him, and that a pure one; and His name is glorified among the Gentiles. (Against the Heresies, Book IV, cap. 17, 5)

Those who have become acquainted with the secondary constitutions of the apostles, are aware that the Lord instituted a new oblation in the new covenant, according to [the declaration of] Malachi the prophet. For, “from the rising of the sun even to the setting my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice;” ... And therefore the oblation of the Eucharist is not a carnal one, but a spiritual; and in this respect it is pure. For we make an oblation to God of the bread and the cup of blessing, giving Him thanks in that He has commanded the earth to bring forth these fruits for our nourishment. And then, when we have perfected the oblation, we invoke the Holy Spirit, that He may exhibit this sacrifice, both the bread the body of Christ, and the cup the blood of Christ, in order that the receivers of these antitypes may obtain remission of sins and life eternal. (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, 37)

The Divine Liturgy of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist Mark, ante 200 AD

We offer this reasonable and bloodless sacrifice, which all nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun, from the north and the south, present to Thee, O Lord; for great is Thy name among all peoples, and in all places are incense, sacrifice, and oblation offered to Thy holy name. (Liturgy of Mark, 3:13)

Tertullian, 197-220 AD

Now the Greek letter TAU and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which He predicted would be the sign on our foreheads in the true Catholic Jerusalem, in which, according to the twenty-first Psalm, the brethren of Christ or children of God would ascribe glory to God the Father ... with this agrees also the prophecy of Malachi: “I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; neither will I accept your offerings: for from the rising of the sun, even unto the going down of the same, my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place sacrifice shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering” - such as the ascription of glory, and blessing, and praise, and hymns. Now, inasmuch as all these things are also found amongst you, and the sign upon the forehead, and the sacraments of the church, and the offerings of the pure sacrifice, you ought now to burst forth, and declare that the Spirit of the Creator prophesied of your Christ. (The Five Books Against Marcion, Book III, cap. 22)

St. Augustine 354-430 AD

Malachi, foretelling the Church ... says most openly to the Jews, in the person of God, “I have no pleasure in you, and I will not accept a gift at your hand. For from the rising even to the going down of the sun, my name is great among the nations; and in every place sacrifice shall be made, and a pure oblation shall be offered unto my name: for my name shall be great among the nations, saith the Lord.” Since we can already see this sacrifice offered to God in every place, from the rising of the sun to his going down, through Christ’s priesthood after the order of Melchisedec, while the Jews, to whom it was said, “I have no pleasure in you, neither will I accept a gift at your hand,” cannot deny that their sacrifice has ceased, why do they still look for another Christ, when they read this in the prophecy, and see it fulfilled, which could not be fulfilled except through Him? (The City of God, Book XVII, cap. 35)

[Quix]

Thanks for the refs.

Heading to pottery. Will try and read the rest later tonight.

[big'ol_freeper]

Good for you. Pottery is very much in accordance with the old saying that idle hands are the work of the devil. Keep those hands blessedly engaged.

[Boagenes]

There is nothing in the canon about praying to Mary and saints. Also, when the practice started it wasn't at the level that it became when it reached the Middle Ages where true Mariolotry was going on, unreserved, by the vast majority of the peasantry and even clergy.

The Church did back away from some of it, but then went ahead and "from the chair" affirmed the "assumption of Mary". This is utterly absurd. There is nothing in a tradition suggesting she was "assumed" into heaven - that has even the remotest link to anything historical. She was living with John in Ephesus, from there she disappears into history. The only indication we have of her later presence is from Luke's Gospel where he says, "all of these things Mary treasured in her heart" (paraphrasing) and this suggests that the infancy narratives and the incident in the temple when he was presented, and later when he was 12, were the things that Mary remembered and related to Luke when he possibly interviewed her for the composition of his gospel. But there is nothing in tradition or the early church father's that in any way indicates she died anything other than a natural death. The "assumption" is pure fantasy, made up whole cloth by the Church. Period.

There is absolutely nothing written about her in the early church fathers - nothing - that indicates she is prayed to or that anyone has any business praying to her, or that she was "without original sin" (a heretical notion) and "the immaculate conception". All of this - all of this - is a later invention, much of it invented in the Middle Ages.

I have nothing against recognizing and honoring the mother of our Lord. But she has no special status apart from any other human being who died and went to be in the presence of the Lord. They don't hear prayers, they can't answer prayers and they won't be able to do anything with and for any other believers until the judgment and resurrection of the dead. Scripture makes this eminently clear.

I have seriously considered the Catholic Church. And this is the biggest issue I have with it. I have searched out the references to Mary in early church history. There is nothing there. Nothing. She is called "theotokos" - simply means, "God bearer". I've got no problem with that. She bore the Son of God. I agree with that. But there is nothing in early church history that shows she is prayed to, venerated in any way, that she was without original sin, that she was anything other than a human woman. In this regard, then, I stand with Martin Luther. This is a matter of conscience, reason and faith. My conscience and reason, based upon history and evidence, tell me that almost all of the Church's teachings in regard to Mary are utter rubbish, made up, pulled out of thin air - originating in the goddess-worship influence that came from the early pagans who were joining the Church (in Ephesus, probably, where there was the huge cult of Artemis - naturally they latched onto the mother of our Lord when they joined Christianity). My faith, and the Holy Spirit, convict me of the notion that to pray to any other person or thing apart from the Trinity is to commit idolatry, and serious error, in fact - sin.