A Convert's Response to Friends

The Coming Home Network ^ | Robert E. Day

[Pyro7480]

It means that one doesn't need many words to get his point across, unlike you it seems.

In other words, "a picture speaks a thousand words."

"Viva Cristo Rey" or "Long Live Christ the King" has been the slogan of Catholic counter-revolutionaries for many years. I shouted it as I encountered your brethren after the papal Mass. The Sacred Heart of Jesus has been the emblem of Catholic counter-revolutionaries since the French Revolution.

The banner itself belonged to the Cristeros of Mexico, who fought the atheistic, socialistic regime in Mexico in the 1920s.

Here's another, made by Freeper B-Chan:

[Quix]

I can certainly can be faulted for using many words.

Angel-Gal has wisely exhorted me about that more than once.

Alas, I’m doubtful that on average, the malady will be greatly cured.

Glad you didn’t miss a chance for a personal slam. Thanks.
Appreciate the points.

[annie laurie]

I can’t recall the last time I saw any Roman Catholic FReeper post a comment that would indicate they love and revere anyone except Mary; if any Roman Catholic FReeper has made a statement recently that speaks of their love and reverence for the Lord Jesus Christ, please ping me to it.

Joya, I have to admit that I was shocked to read this, so much so that I actually read it twice to make sure that I hadn't misread it. I spend relatively little time on the forums (I realize that some posters are here all day long during the workday, while I don't have that luxury) ... my point being that even a sporadic reader such as myself has seen Catholics express their love, worship, adoration, etc, for Christ ... not just occasionally, but many, many times.

In approximately 5 minutes of searching, I found four examples of such, all posted within the last 7 days. Now, if I found four such examples in only five minutes of searching, I think I can confidently extrapolate that there are many more such examples available to anyone who wishes to perform a more thorough search.

Here are the examples which I found just now (I'm pinging all the original posters and referenced posters as a courtesy). Please note that the posts are made by four separate Catholic Freepers:

Post #300: "Just to put a point on your excellent post, we adore only the Holy Trinity, we venerate/honor His Mother, our Mother.":

Post #300

Post #35: "We do not worship Mary. When we kneel as a congregation during the liturgy of the eucharist, we worship Jesus in the remembrance of the Last Supper, and the promise of eternal life through His sacrifice. We do not worship Mary."

Post #35

Post #17: "We worship God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - The Trinity)"

Post #17

Post #133: Background: A previous poster made the statement that "There are no [Catholic] Church's dedicated to "Jesus" or "Christ" or "the Holy Ghost", or anything like that. Just about every church is dedicated to Mary."
A Catholic poster then responds with a list of no less than 38 churches in just two dioceses which are named after "one or more of the Persons of the Holy Trinity, or after some aspect of Jesus’ life or mission", thus amply demonstrating the fallacy of the prior poster's claim.
I'm including this example, since Boagenes' complaint (i.e., that there are no Catholic churches named after Christ, and that most are named after Mary), seemed reminiscent of yours, above.

Post #133

Hopefully the above examples will serve in some small way in putting to rest your misunderstanding that Catholic Freepers do not express love or reverence for Christ. I'm absolutely certain that additional examples are readily available by means of a search, if you wish/need further reassurance. Again, it took only a very few minutes for me to search out the four examples listed above.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: Alas, I’m doubtful that on average, the malady will be greatly cured.

Nor would I wish it to be. You display an enthusiasm that is wonderful. It is a welcome contrast to, despited protestations (no pun intended) from others, blatant undeniable (as hard as they try) bigotry. The difference is quite obvious to anyone on the receiving end.

[Quix]

Have you collected together all the defenses of and adorations of Mary in the same amount of time?

[Quix]

It humbles and touches me deeply that you’d notice and register such. Honored and happy to take you at your word.

Thanks.

May your weekend be particularly enriching in every meaningful way and especially relationally and spiritually.

By God’s Grace, Spirit, Person.

[Running On Empty]

Thanks so much, Anmie Laurie.

We all should always be at the service of truth, for it is He who called Himself “the Way, the Truth and the Life.”

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: Have you collected together all the defenses of and adorations of Mary in the same amount of time?

Not sure that is a fair request. Protestations against Christ’s Church rarely directly attack Christ (even though attacks against the Church are actually attacks against Christ), therefore the need to make statements particularly to defend Jesus are rare. On the other hand, there are ample opportunities to have to defend those the Christ loves from what are usually mis characterizations, to include the Blessed Mother.

[Pyro7480]

Protestations against Christ’s Church rarely directly attack Christ (even though attacks against the Church are actually attacks against Christ), therefore the need to make statements particularly to defend Jesus are rare.

At least on FR.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: At least on FR

Exactly.

[annie laurie]

Have you collected together all the defenses of and adorations of Mary in the same amount of time?

Why would that be necessary? Joya's specific request was as follows:

I can’t recall the last time I saw any Roman Catholic FReeper post a comment that would indicate they love and revere anyone except Mary; if any Roman Catholic FReeper has made a statement recently that speaks of their love and reverence for the Lord Jesus Christ, please ping me to it.

Joya expressed her specific wish to be pinged to Catholic posts which demonstrated love and reverence for Christ.

Joya also made it plain that she was already aware of the existence of posts which expressed love for Mary (see bolded section above). Therefore, it would be completely silly (and a waste of both my time and hers) to gather examples of posts indicating love for Mary.

[annie laurie]

We all should always be at the service of truth, for it is He who called Himself “the Way, the Truth and the Life.”

A hearty AMEN to this :)

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: IF, however, some RC’s are going to claim that RC’s post Marion adorations, glorifications, praisings, venerations strictly and only to poke them in the face of Prottys for the tweaky fun of it, I doubt that many Prottys would think much of such an assertion.

Catholics certainly revere Mary and give her the love and respect that the Blessed Mother deserves, but every minute of every day He is worshiped in fullness in Catholic Churches in a way that no Protestant church is capable of and in fulfillment of Sacred Scripture.

"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts.(Malachi 1:11)

[Quix]

I know.

But it was the sort of thing I might have done, in your shoes. So, I thought I’d ask.

I’d already communicated to Joya that there were such.

[Quix]

Me 3.

[big'ol_freeper]

Continuing (thought I’d make a long post) with how the early Church viewed Malachi 1:11:

The Didache, 70-90 AD

But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations. (Didache, 14)

Apostolic Constitutions, 80-120 AD

Instead of a bloody sacrifice, He has appointed that reasonable and unbloody mystical one of His body and blood, which is performed to represent the death of the Lord by symbols. Instead of the divine service confined to one place, He has commanded and appointed that He should be glorified from sunrising to sunsetting in every place of His dominion. (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book VI, cap. 23)

. On the day of the resurrection of the Lord, that is, the Lord’s day, assemble yourselves together, without fail, giving thanks to God, and praising Him for those mercies God has bestowed upon you through Christ, and has delivered you from ignorance, error, and bondage, that your sacrifice may be unspotted, and acceptable to God, who has said concerning His universal Church: “In every place shall incense and a pure sacrifice be offered unto me; for I am a great King, saith the Lord Almighty, and my name is wonderful among the heathen.” (ibid., Book VII, cap. 30)

St. Justin Martyr, 150-160 AD

God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord: but ye profane it.’ [So] He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we glorify His name, and that you profane [it]. (Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew, 41)

Accordingly, God, anticipating all the sacrifices which we offer through this name, and which Jesus the Christ enjoined us to offer, i.e., in the Eucharist of the bread and the cup, and which are presented by Christians in all places throughout the world, bears witness that they are well-pleasing to Him. But He utterly rejects those presented by you and by those priests of yours, saying, ‘And I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles (He says); but ye profane it.’ (ibid., 117)

St. Irenaeus, 180-190 AD

Again, giving directions to His disciples to offer to God the first-fruits ... He took that created thing, bread, and gave thanks, and said, “This is My body.” And the cup likewise ... He confessed to be His blood, and taught the new oblation of the new covenant; which the Church receiving from the apostles, offers to God throughout all the world ... concerning which Malachi, among the twelve prophets, thus spoke beforehand: “I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord Omnipotent, and I will not accept sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun, unto the going down [of the same], My name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is My name among the Gentiles, saith the Lord Omnipotent” - indicating in the plainest manner, by these words, that the former people [the Jews] shall indeed cease to make offerings to God, but that in every place sacrifice shall be offered to Him, and that a pure one; and His name is glorified among the Gentiles. (Against the Heresies, Book IV, cap. 17, 5)

Those who have become acquainted with the secondary constitutions of the apostles, are aware that the Lord instituted a new oblation in the new covenant, according to [the declaration of] Malachi the prophet. For, “from the rising of the sun even to the setting my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice;” ... And therefore the oblation of the Eucharist is not a carnal one, but a spiritual; and in this respect it is pure. For we make an oblation to God of the bread and the cup of blessing, giving Him thanks in that He has commanded the earth to bring forth these fruits for our nourishment. And then, when we have perfected the oblation, we invoke the Holy Spirit, that He may exhibit this sacrifice, both the bread the body of Christ, and the cup the blood of Christ, in order that the receivers of these antitypes may obtain remission of sins and life eternal. (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, 37)

The Divine Liturgy of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist Mark, ante 200 AD

We offer this reasonable and bloodless sacrifice, which all nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun, from the north and the south, present to Thee, O Lord; for great is Thy name among all peoples, and in all places are incense, sacrifice, and oblation offered to Thy holy name. (Liturgy of Mark, 3:13)

Tertullian, 197-220 AD

Now the Greek letter TAU and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which He predicted would be the sign on our foreheads in the true Catholic Jerusalem, in which, according to the twenty-first Psalm, the brethren of Christ or children of God would ascribe glory to God the Father ... with this agrees also the prophecy of Malachi: “I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord; neither will I accept your offerings: for from the rising of the sun, even unto the going down of the same, my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place sacrifice shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering” - such as the ascription of glory, and blessing, and praise, and hymns. Now, inasmuch as all these things are also found amongst you, and the sign upon the forehead, and the sacraments of the church, and the offerings of the pure sacrifice, you ought now to burst forth, and declare that the Spirit of the Creator prophesied of your Christ. (The Five Books Against Marcion, Book III, cap. 22)

St. Augustine 354-430 AD

Malachi, foretelling the Church ... says most openly to the Jews, in the person of God, “I have no pleasure in you, and I will not accept a gift at your hand. For from the rising even to the going down of the sun, my name is great among the nations; and in every place sacrifice shall be made, and a pure oblation shall be offered unto my name: for my name shall be great among the nations, saith the Lord.” Since we can already see this sacrifice offered to God in every place, from the rising of the sun to his going down, through Christ’s priesthood after the order of Melchisedec, while the Jews, to whom it was said, “I have no pleasure in you, neither will I accept a gift at your hand,” cannot deny that their sacrifice has ceased, why do they still look for another Christ, when they read this in the prophecy, and see it fulfilled, which could not be fulfilled except through Him? (The City of God, Book XVII, cap. 35)

[Quix]

Thanks for the refs.

Heading to pottery. Will try and read the rest later tonight.

[big'ol_freeper]

Good for you. Pottery is very much in accordance with the old saying that idle hands are the work of the devil. Keep those hands blessedly engaged.

[Boagenes]

There is nothing in the canon about praying to Mary and saints. Also, when the practice started it wasn't at the level that it became when it reached the Middle Ages where true Mariolotry was going on, unreserved, by the vast majority of the peasantry and even clergy.

The Church did back away from some of it, but then went ahead and "from the chair" affirmed the "assumption of Mary". This is utterly absurd. There is nothing in a tradition suggesting she was "assumed" into heaven - that has even the remotest link to anything historical. She was living with John in Ephesus, from there she disappears into history. The only indication we have of her later presence is from Luke's Gospel where he says, "all of these things Mary treasured in her heart" (paraphrasing) and this suggests that the infancy narratives and the incident in the temple when he was presented, and later when he was 12, were the things that Mary remembered and related to Luke when he possibly interviewed her for the composition of his gospel. But there is nothing in tradition or the early church father's that in any way indicates she died anything other than a natural death. The "assumption" is pure fantasy, made up whole cloth by the Church. Period.

There is absolutely nothing written about her in the early church fathers - nothing - that indicates she is prayed to or that anyone has any business praying to her, or that she was "without original sin" (a heretical notion) and "the immaculate conception". All of this - all of this - is a later invention, much of it invented in the Middle Ages.

I have nothing against recognizing and honoring the mother of our Lord. But she has no special status apart from any other human being who died and went to be in the presence of the Lord. They don't hear prayers, they can't answer prayers and they won't be able to do anything with and for any other believers until the judgment and resurrection of the dead. Scripture makes this eminently clear.

I have seriously considered the Catholic Church. And this is the biggest issue I have with it. I have searched out the references to Mary in early church history. There is nothing there. Nothing. She is called "theotokos" - simply means, "God bearer". I've got no problem with that. She bore the Son of God. I agree with that. But there is nothing in early church history that shows she is prayed to, venerated in any way, that she was without original sin, that she was anything other than a human woman. In this regard, then, I stand with Martin Luther. This is a matter of conscience, reason and faith. My conscience and reason, based upon history and evidence, tell me that almost all of the Church's teachings in regard to Mary are utter rubbish, made up, pulled out of thin air - originating in the goddess-worship influence that came from the early pagans who were joining the Church (in Ephesus, probably, where there was the huge cult of Artemis - naturally they latched onto the mother of our Lord when they joined Christianity). My faith, and the Holy Spirit, convict me of the notion that to pray to any other person or thing apart from the Trinity is to commit idolatry, and serious error, in fact - sin.