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To: DouglasKC
Presumably they died again, and went back to the grave.

Presumably...how can you do that? It doesn't say either way in Scripture. Now, I know how I can say the righteous are alive, since I have the support of Sacred Tradition. If you are solely looking within written words of the Bible, you cannot presume anything. It is either there or it isn't.

To believe otherwise is to throw out the biblical teaching that the we are not communicate with the dead.

And the word "dead" is where we differ. Righteous life leads to eternal life, not death. That was the promise. And how can Elijah be dead if he was taken away on a Chariot of Fire?

81 posted on 04/12/2008 9:05:14 AM PDT by thefrankbaum
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To: thefrankbaum

Holograms?


83 posted on 04/12/2008 9:06:20 AM PDT by Petronski (Nice job, Hillary. Now go home and get your shine box.)
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To: thefrankbaum
Presumably they died again, and went back to the grave. Presumably...how can you do that? It doesn't say either way in Scripture. Now, I know how I can say the righteous are alive, since I have the support of Sacred Tradition. If you are solely looking within written words of the Bible, you cannot presume anything. It is either there or it isn't. To believe otherwise is to throw out the biblical teaching that the we are not communicate with the dead. And the word "dead" is where we differ. Righteous life leads to eternal life, not death. That was the promise. And how can Elijah be dead if he was taken away on a Chariot of Fire?

Understandable and good questions that I'll respond to later on today or tomorrow....

96 posted on 04/12/2008 9:30:55 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: thefrankbaum
Presumably they died again, and went back to the grave. Presumably...how can you do that? It doesn't say either way in Scripture. Now, I know how I can say the righteous are alive, since I have the support of Sacred Tradition. If you are solely looking within written words of the Bible, you cannot presume anything. It is either there or it isn't.

"Presumably" exactly because scripture doesn't say what happened to them. However, we can deal with what was written after this event.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I'm not exactly sure what your position is, but these saints didn't go to heaven. Scripture doesn't say it. Subsequent writers never mention it.

There are saints mentioned elsewhere. Hebrews 11 lists the leaders of faith, all of whom died for their faith. Yet they have not yet received the promise of eternal life:

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

God's plan is for all his saints to be perfected at the same time, at his return:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Those who sleep, are dead in the grave, will be resurrected to glory with those who are alive and are Christ's at his return.

These are the same ones pictured here:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So scripturally you have to believe that like Lazarus, these saints lived for a period of time and then died.

And the word "dead" is where we differ. Righteous life leads to eternal life, not death.

A righteous life does not lead to eternal life. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only the sacrifice and acceptance of Christ will lead to eternal life. And as pointed out, this doesn't happen until Christ returns. We don't already have eternal life, we receive it as a gift of God.:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And how can Elijah be dead if he was taken away on a Chariot of Fire?

He was certainly taken away by a chariot of fire, but he wasn't carried away into heaven, at least the heaven you're thinking of:

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

"Heaven" can and does refer to the skies, the atmosphere. Elijah was taken up into the sky in a whirlwind. God simply moved him to another location on earth. The proof of this is found later in scripture. Thirteen years after Elijah was carried away, Jeroham received a letter from him:

2Ch 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
2Ch 21:13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:

Why did God move Elijah to another location? Maybe so the mantle would be passed without controversy? Who knows? But scripture is entirely consistent if we only examine it. That was the promise. And how can Elijah be dead if he was taken away on a Chariot of Fire?

221 posted on 04/13/2008 5:51:08 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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