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To: thefrankbaum
I'm kinda busy today, so I can't give your response the attention it deserves. If you'd like to continue this discussion, I would direct you here. If you have thoughts after reading this article, please, post them and I will respond when I get a chance.

From the article at your link:

The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God [...] the shadow of the Most High envelops and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary (cf. Luke 1:35) (Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People, The Shrine: Memory, Presence and Prophecy of the Living God).

No, the 'Tabernacle of the New Covenant' is the heart of Man.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(e-Sword: KJV)

I remain unconvinced. Typology is well and good, but it should not be used for a primary evidence, as it can easily be misleading, as I feel is the case in this matter.

A subject given such iconic veneration, given such a central role, as is the case with Mary among the RCC, should have evidences found in the Scriptures which are declaratory, and many, rather than relying on such evidences as can border upon gnosticism, waiting for centuries to be revealed to men.

I did a study on heretical literature some years back, the subject of which brought to light the intentional misreadings of Scripture and early writings to promote an iconic state for John the Baptist, which are very similar in structure to the nature of the arguments presented to me here...

Very little declares Mary definitively in the Scriptures. What proofs do lie there (at least those offered to me thus far) are exaggerated, or need to be extrapolated, to say the least. Such, indeed, is the case with the comparison of Mary to the Ark of the Covenant. Nary a one of those attributes need apply to Mary at all, and rightly find their place in Christ Himself. He is the Living Testament. He is the fulfillment of the promises in the Old Testament. It is He who is to reside in the Most Holy Place in the New Temple, *not* Mary.

Please forgive me FRiend, if my statements cause offense, as that really is not my intention. My goal is to outline the need for a better proof which, in my opinion, is incumbent upon you (all) to provide.

306 posted on 04/14/2008 12:36:19 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

Physical land promises made to Abraham and to his seed are a part of the New Covenant, so I think it is too simplistic to say that the Tabernacle of the New Covenant is the heart.

Neverthrless this Mary presented as the “shrine” is cerainly not any one of the six Mary’s of the New Testament, who were all as sinful as any other descendent of Adam, and needed a Saviour as much as any other sinner. Mary could have birthed the Son of God (which she did) and died and gone to Hell, had she acted as the majority of her nation did. She had to personally believe upon Him as her personal Saviour and be born-again like any other sinner.

Obviously she is blessed among women for the honour of being chosen to carry and deliver that which had been begotten in her of the Holy Ghost. She is not the only women in the /bible, however, that enjoyed a wonderful beatitude directly from God.

There is no indication in the New Testament that any person ever worshipped Mary; ever thought about worshiping Mary. There is evidence in the New Testament, actually, that one should not.


307 posted on 04/14/2008 12:55:20 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: roamer_1
No offense taken. However, I suspect that I will not be able to convince you, regardless of how much information I provide, nor you convince me.

I don't disagree that Jesus is the one who IS the Word, nor that He resides in the New Temple. However, at its most basic level, the old Ark was a holy vessel which contained the Ten Commandments, Manna from Heaven, and the Staff of Aaron. Mary contained all three of these in her womb - the Word of God (made flesh), the Bread of Life, and the authority of the Priesthood.

I understand you may disagree. So be it. The beauty of my faith is that I can also rely on the thousands of years of teachings from holy men. Mary as the Ark was a common theme with the early Fathers, held by the Church. If it was bordering on a heresy as you claim, I cannot believe the Holy Spirit would let it stand for so long.

I am off for the day - God bless!

309 posted on 04/14/2008 5:57:07 AM PDT by thefrankbaum
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