These heresies have come back and have grown roots again due to the reformation,like the previous example I gave you on those groups again denying Divinity of Christ-the Mormons Jw’s etc.
They don't effect the Catholic Church because they have already been dealt with and condemned.
roamer-””But what is less easy to determine from within the RCC, and I am treading lightly here my FRiend, are those heresies which may have taken root””
Whatever you think has taken root,if it were an actual heresey,it grew outside of the Church,not from the Church's teachings.My guess is that what you call a heresy is based on your OWN interpretation of scripture
roamer-””But what force is there within the RCC that can really do so? Fifteen hundred years of being insistently inerrant, an hierarchical structure with little in the way of checks and balances””
The Catholic Church has concrete dogmatic teaching on Faith and Morals,thus there is no need for checks and balances. An example would be on abortion -we can trace the Church's condemnation of abortion back to the first century written in the Didache and others throughout the centuries
From the Didiache
“You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish” Didache 2, 2: SCh 248, 148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19
roamer-””I will contend that statement. By and large, the lion's share of Protestantism is pretty much on the same page.””
I think many of them started that way in the beginning,but as you pointed out the Presbyterians and Episcopalians, I would say other mainline protestant churches will continue along this path because of the lack of understanding of TRUE freedom and lack of putting concrete limits for the sake of financially being able to survive.
This is the end result of a plauarlistic society
The false idea that freedom is the right to do whatever “I” please has thus lead to a pluralistic world of materialism,sexual immoralities,self fulfillment etc ... you name it , its all here!
All this is done in the name of freedom and protected in the name of democracy
This is not True Freedom,Dear Brother!
True freedom means being FREE FROM ERROR,thus being free from materialism,sexual immoralites, self fulfillment etc
“The Truth shall set you free”
The Catholic Church has taught True freedom from the very beginning and reinforced this through her Dogmatic constitutions through the ages.Sadly many within the Church don't follow those teaching,but those teachings CANNOT ever change because they are dogmatic,thus guided by the Holy Spirit
Roamer said “”I am adamantly against their doctrine of infant baptism””
The early Christians Baptized Infants,Dear Brother.
look.....
“And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God [baptism]; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who as passed through the world without sins.” Aristides, Apology, 15 (A.D. 140).
For He came to save all through means of Himself—all, I say, who through Him are born again to God—infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180).
“I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord.” Polycrates, Fragment in Eusebius’ Church History, V:24:7 (A.D. 190).
“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.” Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 (c. A.D. 215).
“[T]herefore children are also baptized.” Origen, Homily on Luke, XIV (A.D. 233).
“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.” Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).
“Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous.” Origen, Homily on Leviticus, 8:3 (post A.D. 244).
“But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day...And therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council, that by us no one ought to be hindered from baptism...we think is to be even more observed in respect of infants and newly-born persons…” Cyprian, To Fidus, Epistle 58(64):2, 6 (A.D. 251).
“It shows no crease when infants put it on [the baptismal garment], it is not too scanty for young men, it fits women without alteration.” Optatus of Mileve, Against Parmenium, 5:10(A.D. 365).
“Have you an infant child? Do not let sin get any opportunity, but let him be sanctified from his childhood; from his very tenderest age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Fearest thou the Seal on account of the weakness of nature?” Gregory Nazianzen, Oration on Holy Baptism, 40:17 (A.D. 381).
“Be it so, some will say, in the case of those who ask for Baptism; what have you to say about those who are still children, and conscious neither of the loss nor of the grace? Are we to baptize them too? Certainly, if any danger presses. For it is better that they should be unconsciously sanctified than that they should depart unsealed and uninitiated.” Gregory Nazianzen, Oration on Holy Baptism, 40:28 (A.D. 381).
“’Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ No one is expected: not the infant, not the one prevented by necessity.” Ambrose, Abraham, 2,11:79 (A.D. 387).
“We do baptize infants, although they are not guilty of any sins.” John Chrysostom, Ad Neophytos (A.D. 388).
“And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God's earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.” Augustine, On Baptism against the Donatist, 4:24:31 (A.D. 400).
It is also scriptural
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.
Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.
Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children.
Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children's faith.
I have enjoyed conversing with you.
I wish you and your family a Blessed evening
I would offer the 'selling of indulgences', as it quickly comes to mind, as one of many, many things the RCC has ordained as it's right by way of wayward tradition based upon greed at the very highest levels.
My guess is that what you call a heresy is based on your OWN interpretation of scripture
I have certainly heard the arguments on all sides wrt many things in many denominations, including the RCC, and I must confess, I do make up my own mind. That is not a bad thing:
Psa 132:12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne forevermore. Psa 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness. Luk 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
(e-Sword: KJV)
But lest we venture too far into my 'own opinion' and the right of each believer to listen to the Spirit, Let us not forget that there are millions who believe, even as I do. Do not suppose that the Protestants have no structured teachings, nor that they would not endeavor to teach rightly, be it in their parishes, their colleges, or to their clergy.
There is great emphasis placed upon the individual opinion, as is right, as it keeps the church from overstepping it's boundaries- causing it to remain transparent in it's attempts. But that is *not* to say that the Protestant opinion, which I suppose to be correct in it's attention to RCC heresies, can be quantitatively removed from me as I do make 'my OWN opinion'.
I think many of them started that way in the beginning,but as you pointed out the Presbyterians and Episcopalians, I would say other mainline protestant churches will continue along this path because of the lack of understanding of TRUE freedom and lack of putting concrete limits for the sake of financially being able to survive.
I firmly disagee that this is the case. In both cases, the Episcopalians and the PresbyterianUSA, their mantle of leadership is being taken from them because they do not speak the truth.
But in both cases, the churches will go on. PresbyterianUSA is not the be all or end all of Presyterianism, and neither is the Episcopalian the only definition of Anglicanism. There is a corrective measure, applied on the fly, which cannot be applied (IMHO) as readily in the hierarchy of the RCC.
The false idea that freedom is the right to do whatever “I” please has thus lead to a pluralistic world of materialism,sexual immoralities,self fulfillment etc ... you name it , its all here! All this is done in the name of freedom and protected in the name of democracy
Bah! I reject the argument. Well, not the argument, but the accusation that the Protestants are the root of such a thing. As you well know the Christian Right, Made up largely of Protestants, is part and parcel against the idea you put forth. We well know the difference as should be most evident here, of all places.
No! It is the French Liberalism, growing fitfully from the rotten root of Roman Empire that has foisted this nonsense upon the world. It has grown and festered far longer in the Catholic nations than it ever has among the Protestants. It is the basis of the stench of Nazism, and of communism, and is the very self same liberalism that we fight now. To suggest that such is the fault of Protestantism, or of the Protestant Nations is to deny history.
The early Christians Baptized Infants,Dear Brother.
Thank you for your input, but I was well aware of it all, and have fought endlessly in spite of it, and with good reason. However, I would save that battle for another day, as I do not care to cause yet another sub-debate on this thread. My example was for it's purpose, and only that purpose.
I have enjoyed conversing with you.
Likewise, my FRiend. Good night.