[annalex]

Yes, I expected Harley to post something like this. Obviously, the opinion of the bishops is sought, and so votes are taken to learn what it is, but it would be a mistake to say that the dogma emerged democratically FROM the voting process. The dogma is proclaimed if in the eye of the Magisterium it has been the inchoate belief of the Church Catholic since the beggining of the Church. It is not created by voting in the same sense in which our government makes laws by voting.

Further, no one in the Catholic is free to choose "which dogma to believe".

These are things Harley should know because of all people he has put, he says, quite an investment of time in studying Catohlicism. So when he displays such ignorance of the magisterial process, it is frustrating, and I begin to wonder if his time would not be better spent arguing about monergism with his fellow Protestants.

[HarleyD]

Yes, I expected Harley to post something like this. Obviously, the opinion of the bishops is sought, and so votes are taken to learn what it is, but it would be a mistake to say that the dogma emerged democratically FROM the voting process.

Fortunately Old Reg saved me the trouble.

The dogma is proclaimed if in the eye of the Magisterium it has been the inchoate belief of the Church Catholic since the beggining of the Church....These are things Harley should know

What I do know is that "these things" were never the belief since the beginning of the Church. They've evolved. One can simply read that in New Advent which often admit matter of fact like of the evolution of theology. Anselm introducted a whole bunch of new ideas about 1000 years after the beginnings of the Church so it is impossible to say they believed in these ideas. You may say that the early church fathers had this in the back of their minds but that is really reading far too much into their thought process.

It would be one thing if the Catholic Church would admit to the evolution of doctrine. The Orthodox are very up front about it and make no pretense that they don't mind tinkering with their doctrine from time to time. But the Catholics would like for us to believe that EVERYTHING started on day one of Pentacost-the doctrine of Mary, the Eucharist, purgatory, etc.

I'm not displaying ignorance about the magisterial process. What I am affirming is that it IS a voting process by which people have put forth doctrines, people come together and accept or reject them. Sometimes those doctrines are clear cut and it doesn't take much convincing. Out of those doctrines come the creeds of the Church/church. Sometimes those doctrines are not so clear and, yes, a vote is taken in an indirect sort of way.

There is no greater evidence of the Church voting process than Mariology. How many times have people within the Church petitioned the Church to have Mary declared Co-Redemptix? Do you think some day they will succeed in getting Mary declared Co-Redemptix? Do you think the early fathers believed that Mary was equal with Christ-yes or no?