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To: Mr. Lucky; annalex
Prior to the 1930’s, it was viewed as a sin in most confessional Lutheran synods.

The trouble is that during WWI, much of what the American Synods did was dictated to by the government. My grandfather remembered when they were forced to use the Anglican liturgy (which became the basis for the liturgy in the Red Hymnal). There remained some cross pollination for decades.

When contraception first hit the scene, the LCMS and many other synods were dead set against it. In fact, that was never officially changed, but it was allowed to be forgotten. Recently, there have been some pastors who have been quietly trying to bring it back to the forefront, but with the current PDL nuttiness that probably won't happen.

As to the doctrine of the Real Presence, take a look at Pelikin’s “History of Doctrine” series, specifically the book number 4 that was about the Medieval Catholic Church. Transubsitution as it is currently defined was not the consensus for all time (that Christ is truly in the bread and wine was, but not the details). Look at the Orthodox, they believe in the Real Presence, but do not define it like the Western Catholic do (don't know the Eastern Catholics view). The Lutheran view was basically that we believe Jesus’s body and blood is really there, but we don't really know how (it is a miracle).

As to the crisis of authority, I agree. The Roman Catholic Church as quite the crisis of authority right now :) What I mean is that while you can point out to all the paper dogmas about it, but it is rarely (if ever) used. Case in point, my wife is a Catholic and we live in eastern Iowa right by the Illinois border. The Davenport diocese is quite frankly whacked. When we first moved here, my wife looked into many local parishes, and heard many a sermon about gay rights, how horrible the war is, and that unwed mothers were really all right. Not to mention you rarely saw a cross or crucifix.

Now in the Peoria diocese across the river, you do have a lot of happy clappy praise songs (which annoys me), but I have never heard anything like what you hear in Davenport. A few to many Life Teen services, but that is that.

If you were to take someone and drop them into the two dioceses, they would swear it was two different denominations, if not religions. One is fairly orthodox, and one is trying to take the sex abuse title from Boston (and they are close!). Both claim the same "Unchangeable" authority, but both teach radically different things. Both claim to hold to the teaching of the Catholic church, but they contradict each other.

In my synod, if I go from district to district, the differences are a lot smaller. When I was on the road, the little church I went to in New Mexico had the same teaching as the church in Nebraska I belonged to. The differences between the two Catholic dioceses that are right next to each other are a lot greater.

55 posted on 04/03/2008 6:04:22 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum; Mr. Lucky

Nothing I disagree with as far as our own crisis of authority goes. The American Catholic Church is in real crisis of orthodoxy. I am hopeful though — orthodoxy attracts: the more conservative seminaries and parishes are full, the liberal ones — I don’t really care what they do. I don’t think it would be bad for the Church to be less in numbers and more in orthodoxy. Of course, the reason for my hope is precisely that: that the structure of authority exists, I just wish it were exercised more. See, you made a papist argument, and immediately, I agreed.

You are also correct that transsubstantiation is one explanation of the Real Presence, so in principle there could be others, or none at all. What troubles me in consubstantiation is the idea that the faith of the communicant makes it Body Blood and Divinity of Christ. That is not patristic, nor is it Real Presence then.


56 posted on 04/03/2008 7:18:36 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: redgolum
Dear redgolum,

“The trouble is that during WWI, much of what the American Synods did was dictated to by the government. My grandfather remembered when they were forced to use the Anglican liturgy (which became the basis for the liturgy in the Red Hymnal). There remained some cross pollination for decades.”

Could you elaborate on this point? Are you saying that the US federal government dictated religious policy and practice to some US ecclesial bodies? I'd appreciate any further explanation and details.

Thanks,


sitetest

57 posted on 04/04/2008 6:23:04 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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