It’s been done, but most RCs would rather ridicule the author than honestly examine the issue. None the less:
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES ABOUT MARY
COMPARED WITH WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS
My sources for this section are the Bible and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church,” which has numbered paragraphs. For the sake of simplicity and brevity, I will just say “Catechism” plus the number of the paragraph(s). For example, “’Catechism’ 411, 493” means “’Catechism of the Catholic Church,’ paragraphs numbered 411 and 493”.
For each doctrinal category, I will indicate the Catholic doctrine, followed by the appropriate references from the “Catechism”. I will follow this with quotations from the Bible which relate to the doctrine. The last book in the Bible is called “The Book of Revelation” in Protestant Bibles and “The Apocalypse” in Catholic Bibles. I will refer to it as “Revelation”.
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION — Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (”Catechism” 490-492).
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”. Mary knew that she needed a savior.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and theologians of the Catholic Church. (Note 13)
ALL-HOLY — Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life. (”Catechism” 411, 493)
Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Revelation 15:4 says, “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy”. Romans 3:10 says, “There is none righteous, no, not one”.
Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 1 Peter 2:22 says, “Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth”.
In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.
In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it. (Revelation 5:1-5)
PERPETUAL VIRGINITY — Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. (”Catechism” 496-511)
Matthew 1:24-25 says, “Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” “Till” (until) means that after that point, Joseph did “know” (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam “knew” Eve and she conceived and had a son.)
Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Bible even tells us their names. Matthew 13:54-56 says, “
And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?”
Other Scripture verses which specifically refer to Jesus’ brothers are: Matthew 12:46; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; and Galatians 1:19.
I was always taught that “brothers” and “sisters” were general terms that really could refer to any kind of kinsman, including cousins. This is true in the Hebrew language. However, the New Testament is written in Greek, which is an extremely precise language. It makes a clear distinction between the words used to describe family relationships. There is a Greek word which refers to people who are relatives but not of the immediate family, such as aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces and cousins. There are other Greek words which refer specifically to a person’s brother or sister within a family. (Note 14)
MOTHER OF GOD — Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. (”Catechism” 963, 971, 2677).
The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds”.
Colossians 1:16-17 says,
“For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist”.
John 8:58 says, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, “And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first — not Mary.
MOTHER OF THE CHURCH — Mary is the Mother of the Church. “Catechism” 963, 975).
Acts 1:13-14 gives a picture of a group of people praying together. Mary is mentioned as one of them, but nothing indicates any special prominence.
“And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Phillip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.”
Mary was probably in the Upper Room when the tongues of fire fell upon the 120 disciples. However, she is never mentioned again in the Book of Acts, which is our only historical record of how the Church was born. She is also not specifically identified in the epistles. Paul did send greetings to “Mary”, but that was a common name. (In the Gospels and in the Book of Acts, she is referred to as “Mary the mother of Jesus” to distinguish her from other women named Mary.)
It is notable that John, who took Mary into his home after Jesus was crucified, does not mention her in his epistles, and he only mentions her on two occasions in his Gospel (the wedding at Cana and the crucifixion of Jesus). John mentions Mary Magdalene more than he mentions Jesus’ mother.
ASSUMPTION — At the end of her life, Mary was taken up (”assumed”) body and soul into Heaven. (”Catechism” 966, 974)
There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn’t John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)
The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.
In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have “infallible” popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another “infallible” pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)
CO-MEDIATOR — Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (”Catechism” 968-970, 2677)
There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” Ephesians 3:12 says, “In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us “to the uttermost,” (utterly, completely) then He doesn’t need Mary’s help. If we can approach God with “boldness” and “confidence” because of our faith in Jesus, then we don’t need Mary’s help either.
QUEEN OF HEAVEN — God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. (”Catechism” 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. (”Catechism” 971, 2675)
Psalm 148:13 says, “Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.” This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)
When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.
“And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” (Luke 11:27-28)
In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God’s praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all.
(taken from a web site that is not my own)
Post the link please. Okay? It’s easier to discuss it if the link is before me, besides being good manners and not infringing on copyright.
“(taken from a web site that is not my own)”
Link, please.
One of your many lies.
Got a link?
(1) Immaculate Conception
<1a)Those who read the discussion of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception will understand that Mary's sinlessness results from a saving act of God in Christ. Consequently the Dogma in no way negates Her need for a savior.
(You give us quotes from a site; those quotes have footnotes, you do note offer the notes and conceal form us the URL. This makes examining the claims difficult.)
(1b)Since you deny us the needed data, I must sometimes argue generally. A heretic in some things is not necessarily a heretic in all things. So that someone who "introduced" a doctrine was later declared a heretic does not bear on the doctrine.(3)That there was disagreement about the doctrine argues neither one way nor the other.
(2)All Holy
(2a)To take Paul's comment or that of the psalms or from he song of praise in Revelation as mathematically comprehensive runs contrary to good sense and to the plain sense of Scripture: For example: If only God is holy then we should root out every mention of "the saints" (which is merely a conventional translation of "hoi hagioi" = "the holy ones") in Paul's writings. God is the source of Holiness, but He makes those whom he saves and "sanctifies" (= "makes holy") holy.
(2b)Sinless people do not need a Savior.
Well this is redundant. There are two ways you can save me from falling: (A)You can pick me up and dust me off AFTER I fall. (B)You can grab my arm and keep me from falling at all. In both cases I need someone to save me from falling. Jesus saved Mary in a manner analogous to the second.
(2c))The worthy to open the scroll problem: As already stated, the holiness of God, of the three persons of the Trinity is different because it is original. The holiness of all the creatures whom we call holy (and man and angels are called holy) is derivative. This accounts for the difference.
(3)Perpetual Virginity
(3a)“Till” (until) means that after that point, Joseph did “know” (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam “knew” Eve and she conceived and had a son.)
Sez who? The (or one) obvious point of the verse is to make plain that there was no way that Joseph could have been the father of IHS.
(3b)The "brothers" of IHS. This is your strongest argument because there is not very much authority (but there is some) for "adelphos" meaning something other than "brother" as we use the word. However for this argument to be conclusive we'd have to be able to show that Joseph did not have children by a former marriage and that he had not adopted children of his kin. Still this is the strongest argument on linguistic grounds.
(4)Theotokos
It is hard to take seriously the arguments against theotokos because they seem proudly to refute something we do not say.(a)The mother is not the source of everything that her child is, but only of part of it - her genetic material joins with that of the Father. The genetic material of the father may predate even the life of the mother, but that does not make her any less the mother of the child. (Example: My father was born in 1904, my mother in 1920, but she is still my mother, even though my father was likely producing sperm before my mother was born.) The mother then bears the conceived child in her womb, though, as was said, much of what the child IS is alien and certainly not dependent on the mother. Then parturition occurs; the mother gives birth.
We do not claim in the title Theotokos, that Mary is the source of everything that Jesus is, any more than my mother is the source of everything that I am. Consequently, to those who have thought about what motherhood is, the arguments that God predated Mary, the Mary was created by God, are simply irrelevant to what we mean by theotokos.
(5)Mother of the Church.
It's a similar problem. I read what you write and think,"So? What does that have to do with it?"
(6)The Assumption.
As to the lack of Biblical reference, the maxim "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" applies. The writers of the NT had different fish to fry, and none was giving an encyclopedia of Christian Doctrine.
The phrase "At the end of her life" is unclear. It could mean before or after her death. If after, then it is easily imagined that it might also have been less spectacular than Elijah's assumption, which was seen, I believe, by only one person.
The slam about "'infallible' popes" is misleading and generally meretricious. It is hard to believe that anti-Catholics still think that we think that everything a Pope says, even officially, is infallible.
And again we have the footnote numbers but with no footnotes. After reading DiLorenzo's work on Lincoln and discovering that what the text giveth research on the footnotes taketh away, I am no longer snowed by footnotes.
(7)Co-Mediator
This is wearisome. Again with the "need" argument. I wish our opponents would argue against what we say, not against what we don't say (and would refrain from taking the enthusiastic statements of some partisans as official and formal theological declarations.
As discussed before, there seems to be a duty we have to intercede "for all men". But, of course, no man NEEDS our intercession. Why the duty then?
As to "one mediator" either we have to make an artificial distinction between mediation and intercession or we have to say that our Lord's being the ONE mediator does not preclude mediation by others.
Christ reconciles the world to himself, and yet we are given a ministry of reconciliation. Is Jesus not the ONE reconciler?
Two large thoughts might be useful here. If I may assume that you are a Trinitarian, I ask you to consider that "one" when applied to God doesn't mean exactly what we thought it does, since it seems to somehow include a plurality. This should prompt some wonderment about the word "one".
Also (and I got this from C.S. Lewis) there is some Pauline language about being "IN Christ", an generally Paul seems to have some intersting notions about "in": cf: I Cor 7 "the unbelieivng husband is made holy in his wife and the unbelieving wife is made holy in her husband," where 'made holy' is 'hegiastai' and 'in' is 'en'.
(This also serves to address again the complaint about calling Mary "Panagia". There's a lot of derivative holiness in the NT.)
As the statements elsewhere in this thread make clear, Mary's mediationis entirely derivative, is, as Paul might say "in" Christ.
(8)Queen of Heaven
Leaving aside the question as to whether Revelation provides a comprehensive and sufficient description of heaven, I will just say that the pattern of arguments given here is so similar to that presented for the other points that it should be easy to work out the counter arguments.
I must add that I have done my own work on this post and have not referred to any concealed sources. The books I used were:
What a great post! Step by step it breaks down all the mythology surrounding Mary. Please freepmail me the web site.
Great read.
AMEN, MTWD!
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION [...] In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”. Mary knew that she needed a savior
Indeed she needed a savior, and she has One. Who do you think made her immaculate from conception? The redemption of the Cross works both forward and backward in time.
ALL-HOLY [...] Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Revelation 15:4 says, “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy”. Romans 3:10 says, “There is none righteous, no, not one”. [...] Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless
So, Romans 3, if taken literally, contradicts holiness of Jesus also. It is also not true that Jesus alone is described as sinless, so is Noah (Gen 6:9), for example. Romans 3 (and Romans 5, where it is clear from context which mixes "all" and "many") speaks in broad terms of generations of fallen man. There is no reason not to contemplate an exception here for Mary, John the Baptist, and possibly other exceptional people, just like an implicit exception is made for Jesus Himself.
PERPETUAL VIRGINITY
knew her not till
"Till" MAY mean that the situation changed after the event controlled by "till", but it does not necessarily mean so. There are several usages in the Gospel including in the book of Matthew of the latter kind. This verse does not say anything of Mary and Joseph's marital relations after the birth of Jesus.
Jesus had brothers and sisters
As you yourself note, the word could be used generically. It is not true that it cannot be used generically in Greek, especially in reference to a collection of half brothers, cousins, second cousins, step brothers, etc. which most likely was the case. It would be simply tedious to enumerate all these precise terms of relation when not even giving the names, and when it is not called for by context. In two instances where names are given, from another gospel we learn that the same Joseph and James are children of Mary Cleopas. The scripture certainly allows for the interpretation that Jesus had uterine siblings, but it also allows for the historically accepted interpretation that they were relatives of some other kinds.
MOTHER OF GOD [...] He existed before Mary was born
No one disputes that Jesus pre-existed Mary. However, Jesus is one person and Mary gave birth to Him. To say that Mary gave birth to His human nature but not to His divine nature tears in two Jesus as single person. It is an old heresy, that denies the essence of the Trinity.
MOTHER OF THE CHURCH
No contradiction is even alleged here.
ASSUMPTION
No contradiction is even alleged here. In addition, "There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary" is plain wrong, Mary is shown as Queen of Heaven fighting Satan on behalf of her Church in Apocalypse 12.
CO-MEDIATOR [...] There is only one mediator and that is Jesus
No one disputes that. If Mary co-mediated, say, Mohammed, the critic would have a point, but she leads to Jesus, Who alone mediates before God. A scriptural case for such mediation is the miracle at Cana, as well as the simple fact that Jesus came to us through Mary.
QUEEN OF HEAVEN
It is not clear where the alleged contradiction is. In the instance where Mary is venerated by a woman in the crowd, Jesus did not tell her to stop venerating Mary, but rather urged to venerate all saints as well. The direct prooftext for "Queen of Heaven" is Apocalypse 12.