Posted on 04/01/2008 4:23:02 PM PDT by NYer
You did.
Of course, that provision only applies some of the time.
John 1
Love this! Memorized it from the Latin Mass.
Just read. It sings!
“In the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Word was with God; and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was made nothing that has been made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness; and the darkness grasped it not. There was a man, one sent from God, whose name was John. This man came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, that all might believe through Him. He was not himself the Light, but was to bear witness to the Light. It was the true Light that enlightens every man who comes into the world. He was in the world and the world was made by Him and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But to as many as received Him, He gave the power of becoming sons of God; to those who believe in His name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man but of God. AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us. And we saw His glory, the glory as of the Only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth. Thanks be to God.
The prayer said after Mass in TLM.
This one I know I know by heart.
And of course, we know that the Word, the Logos was Christ carried in the womb of the Blessed Mother who visited Elizabeth her cousin who carried John the Baptist, of the John in this prayer, who greeted Mary with this statement:
Luke:1-39
” During those days, Mary set out andtraveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the HOLY SPIRIT cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
Blessed are you who believed that was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Blessed are you...is Luke’s affirmation of Mary’s role as believer and in explicit mention of Mary’s presence in the upper room and among the Apostles after the Resurrection.
So the Logos becomes flesh, part of the Blessed Mother.
She is the mother of the Logos, the Mother of God.
The Logos exists for all time, from the beginning.
My point with the “doctor” is simply that she does not understand the scripture she quotes, and if you ask a direct question, she runs off or changes the subject. There is nothing in the scripture that contradicts the Catholic doctrines — it cannot be. There are interpretations that seem to contradict Catholicism if taken out of context. The “doctor” knows that, — we’ve been around long enough. I fully expect her to post stuff about “Hitler Pope” someplace else, that is what she does once beaten on the scripture. It is quite comical, — cheer up.
Well, somebody told me that Dante's Commedia is not Scripture, so I'm feeling very sort of cut adrift here ...
She gave birth to Jesus Christ: He is the hypostatic union of True God and True Man. He is God’s son come in the flesh.
God’s humility was so great to be born of a creature he made that no one can ever really have any thoughts of pride.
I would think that of one makes a simple argument like “Marian devotions are contrary to scripture”, then that person should be able to point out the relevant scripture, rather than give me a warm and fuzzy about what heart I am supposed to read it with.
I am interested in someone showing me how Marian devotions contradict scripture, because that is a very serious charge, and it is false. When that occurs, I will be happy to explain anything else.
It’s been done, but most RCs would rather ridicule the author than honestly examine the issue. None the less:
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES ABOUT MARY
COMPARED WITH WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS
My sources for this section are the Bible and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church,” which has numbered paragraphs. For the sake of simplicity and brevity, I will just say “Catechism” plus the number of the paragraph(s). For example, “’Catechism’ 411, 493” means “’Catechism of the Catholic Church,’ paragraphs numbered 411 and 493”.
For each doctrinal category, I will indicate the Catholic doctrine, followed by the appropriate references from the “Catechism”. I will follow this with quotations from the Bible which relate to the doctrine. The last book in the Bible is called “The Book of Revelation” in Protestant Bibles and “The Apocalypse” in Catholic Bibles. I will refer to it as “Revelation”.
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION — Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (”Catechism” 490-492).
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”. Mary knew that she needed a savior.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and theologians of the Catholic Church. (Note 13)
ALL-HOLY — Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life. (”Catechism” 411, 493)
Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Revelation 15:4 says, “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy”. Romans 3:10 says, “There is none righteous, no, not one”.
Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 1 Peter 2:22 says, “Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth”.
In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.
In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it. (Revelation 5:1-5)
PERPETUAL VIRGINITY — Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. (”Catechism” 496-511)
Matthew 1:24-25 says, “Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” “Till” (until) means that after that point, Joseph did “know” (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam “knew” Eve and she conceived and had a son.)
Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Bible even tells us their names. Matthew 13:54-56 says, “
And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?”
Other Scripture verses which specifically refer to Jesus’ brothers are: Matthew 12:46; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; and Galatians 1:19.
I was always taught that “brothers” and “sisters” were general terms that really could refer to any kind of kinsman, including cousins. This is true in the Hebrew language. However, the New Testament is written in Greek, which is an extremely precise language. It makes a clear distinction between the words used to describe family relationships. There is a Greek word which refers to people who are relatives but not of the immediate family, such as aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces and cousins. There are other Greek words which refer specifically to a person’s brother or sister within a family. (Note 14)
MOTHER OF GOD — Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. (”Catechism” 963, 971, 2677).
The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds”.
Colossians 1:16-17 says,
“For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist”.
John 8:58 says, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, “And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first — not Mary.
MOTHER OF THE CHURCH — Mary is the Mother of the Church. “Catechism” 963, 975).
Acts 1:13-14 gives a picture of a group of people praying together. Mary is mentioned as one of them, but nothing indicates any special prominence.
“And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Phillip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.”
Mary was probably in the Upper Room when the tongues of fire fell upon the 120 disciples. However, she is never mentioned again in the Book of Acts, which is our only historical record of how the Church was born. She is also not specifically identified in the epistles. Paul did send greetings to “Mary”, but that was a common name. (In the Gospels and in the Book of Acts, she is referred to as “Mary the mother of Jesus” to distinguish her from other women named Mary.)
It is notable that John, who took Mary into his home after Jesus was crucified, does not mention her in his epistles, and he only mentions her on two occasions in his Gospel (the wedding at Cana and the crucifixion of Jesus). John mentions Mary Magdalene more than he mentions Jesus’ mother.
ASSUMPTION — At the end of her life, Mary was taken up (”assumed”) body and soul into Heaven. (”Catechism” 966, 974)
There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn’t John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)
The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.
In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have “infallible” popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another “infallible” pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)
CO-MEDIATOR — Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (”Catechism” 968-970, 2677)
There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” Ephesians 3:12 says, “In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us “to the uttermost,” (utterly, completely) then He doesn’t need Mary’s help. If we can approach God with “boldness” and “confidence” because of our faith in Jesus, then we don’t need Mary’s help either.
QUEEN OF HEAVEN — God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. (”Catechism” 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. (”Catechism” 971, 2675)
Psalm 148:13 says, “Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.” This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)
When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.
“And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” (Luke 11:27-28)
In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God’s praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all.
(taken from a web site that is not my own)
Yes, I’d be interested too.
No one has ever shown me a passage that directly contradicts Marian devotions.
Post the link please. Okay? It’s easier to discuss it if the link is before me, besides being good manners and not infringing on copyright.
“(taken from a web site that is not my own)”
Link, please.
Of course it is clear enough. It just doesn't say what you claim.
God is SOVEREIGN.
Whom do you imagine disagrees?
Well, obviously I’m not being allowed to see the link, so I’ll say Good-night to all.
No link, as I do not want to distract ya’ll from the arguments presented. The request for Scripture that showed Mary worship (my choice of words) to be wrong. Let the argument and Scripture speak.
“No link, as I do not want to distract ya’ll from the arguments presented. “
No dice. Link or no argument. Very bad manners.
One of your many lies.
ROFLMAO
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:
Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Isa 46:8 -11 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring [it] again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.
Isa 46:12 -13 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that [are] far from righteousness: I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Eph 1:3-14 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 3:8-11 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Phl 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
2. The plan was all of God with no mention of Mary having a part except as the mother of the child Jesus. Isaiah prophesied her calling just as Malachi prophesied John the Baptist’s calling and Isaiah prophesied Paul’s calling to cause Israel’s jealousy over the Gentiles; all mere vessels used in the eternal plan of salvation. All of the glory belongs to God and He shares it with no one.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel
3. The importance of Mary is demonstrated by the fact that Jesus‘ birth is only reported in two of the Gospels; briefly in Matthew and more detailed in Luke. However in Matthew more space is given to convincing Joseph that Mary was not unfaithful than to the annunciation to Mary. Elizabeth gets as much coverage in Luke concerning the birth of John the Baptist as Mary gets. Mark and John give no mention of Jesus’ birth nor do any of the other writers. After the wedding at Cana at the beginning of Jesus’ public ministry, there are no recorded words of Mary, nor is she reported to have been at the tomb or at any of the resurrection appearances. After Acts 1 she is not mentioned again.
4. There is also the fact that the sentimental familial relationships here on earth are not the relationships in heaven. There are no husband/wife/children relations in heaven; we are all children of God. That’s the emphasis Jesus gives in His sermons.
Luk 20:34-36 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Mar 3:33-35 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
5. Now, if in heaven believers are as angels, they are not to be worshiped or seen as any different than angels.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
6. Mary, as a believer, will be just another part of the “Bride of Christ” just like all believers when Christ returns.
I definitely am going to bed now. The Holy Spirit knows I’m bushed.
It’s hard to believe I typed all that!
I think Dawg’s sheep would make more sense sometimes.
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