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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr; ...
Jesus said: Matt 4:4 ... 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" Notice that it says MAN, not PRIESTS. A man LIVES on the word of God. A priest cannot eat for you, you can only eat for yourself. So, if one wants his life to be nourished by God, he MUST know the scriptures himself.

First, this is Christ being "quoted" while He is alone in the wilderness for 40 days. Was Matthew there? Was Luke there? No, neither was there. So neither is an eyewitness account. Rather it is a moral narrative written by a human being expressing a moral lesson to follow.

Second, Matthew is quoting from the Septuagint. If you check the Hebrew Bible, it says every thing (not every word). It is the Greek Septuagint that introduces the "word," but not the Hebrew version. The Hebrew version says nothing about a "word of God." It says every thing that wells from God.

This alleged "quote" was taken from Deuteronomy 8:3, and in the context of the OT chapter that follows it is clear that we are not speaking of "words" of God, but of God being a source (orifice from which proceeds everything  of what) we need.

More importantly, Christ's "quote" is Matthew's (LXX) version is in the future (shall live), whereas the Hebrew version simply uses the present ( "does live"). KJV opted to keep the Septuagint version (so much for Hebrew version of the OT! Mixing and matching and cherry-picking, he?) in this case because it expresses the Christian belief that we will physically die and bread alone will not sustain in life, but those who obey God will continue to live even after we die. The Hebrew OT makes no such implication.

The Greek version with the "word" also fits neatly with the Protestant idea of Scriptures being the "word of God." So, this is how manipulative KJV is! NIV marches right in step. NAB says "everything." The Septuagint is making an anthropomorphic statement which someone took literally and ran away with it!

The second part of your post here says "So, if one wants his life to be nourished by God, he MUST [sic] know the scriptures himself." It sure sounds like the man is deciding. Was this a slip? Or is it your inner conscience telling you the truth? Is it not the Bible which you worship, by your own admission, that says the Holy Spirit will teach you everything you need to know? So, where are you getting 'if one wants..." stuff? Since when is the faith man's prerogative?

And do you not think that God will nourish you spiritually if you simply pray? Is it not Jesus who is quoted as saying that whatever we ask (in good faith) will be granted? Is it not the same Bible you worship that says in the OT that those who obey God's commandments will be taken care of? Where does it say that anyone "must" know the Scriptures in order to believe or to be spiritually sustained?

I suppose you could come back and say what about illiterates and such, but that is not your situation

No I wouldn't, because the illiterates can go to church and hear about God if they want to,  but all they really have to do is pray and praise God for His blessings to be sustained. They don't have to read a single word in the Bible. It seems to me, you place  the Bible before prayers and seem to think that one cannot pray without knowing the Bible.

Our connection to God is through prayer FK. It can be even without words! If God is the Comforter, what words are "necessary" to feel His love?

6,591 posted on 07/21/2008 11:27:00 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr; HarleyD; ...
[On Matt. 4:4] First, this is Christ being "quoted" while He is alone in the wilderness for 40 days. Was Matthew there? Was Luke there? No, neither was there. So neither is an eyewitness account. Rather it is a moral narrative written by a human being expressing a moral lesson to follow.

So, you toss Matt. 4:4 because you say there wasn't a witness there suitable to you? OK. I am sure you have it on good authority that Christ never recounted what happened to Him to His disciples.

Second, Matthew is quoting from the Septuagint. If you check the Hebrew Bible, it says every thing (not every word). It is the Greek Septuagint that introduces the "word," but not the Hebrew version. The Hebrew version says nothing about a "word of God." It says every thing that wells from God.

Ah, so for this we need to toss the Septuagint and take up the Hebrew OT. I see. Should we accept the Septuagint in every other case, or will you let me know about the exceptions as we go along? :) In any case, every "thing" that wells from God obviously includes the word of God.

This alleged "quote" was taken from Deuteronomy 8:3, and in the context of the OT chapter that follows it is clear that we are not speaking of "words" of God, but of God being a source (orifice from which proceeds everything of what) we need.

I have no idea what kind of distinction you are trying to make. I'll grant that you are working very hard to get rid of "word", but it's not working. While the Hebrew did not have word, the same Hebrew has no problem with "that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord". Adding "word" only makes sense. It is tortured reasoning to suppose it doesn't.

The second part of your post here says "So, if one wants his life to be nourished by God, he MUST [sic] know the scriptures himself." It sure sounds like the man is deciding. Was this a slip?

No slip, God will make sure that His children know Him by leading them to know something of His word.

Is it not the Bible which you worship, by your own admission, that says the Holy Spirit will teach you everything you need to know?

When you refer to my agreeing that I "worship the Bible" you have to include the definition that we agreed upon. That is "devotion to God's word". Otherwise, readers will get confused. By this same type of definition, of course you will be fine with my saying that you worship Mary, by your own admission. And since I do not pray to the Bible, that would make your worship of Mary all the stronger.

And yes, the Holy Spirit will teach us everything we need to know. He will illuminate the scriptures to us so that we will understand what we need.

And do you not think that God will nourish you spiritually if you simply pray?

One cannot know what or how to pray without first knowing God's word.

Is it not Jesus who is quoted as saying that whatever we ask (in good faith) will be granted?

We can't know how to ask in good faith without first knowing God's word. God can always make special dispensations for people on desert islands, etc., but I am talking about in the normal course.

Is it not the same Bible you worship that says in the OT that those who obey God's commandments will be taken care of?

We can't know what God's Commandments are without first knowing God's word. Again, you are espousing a works-ONLY salvation model. The Bible does not teach that. Rather, it teaches a faith-ONLY salvation model.

Where does it say that anyone "must" know the Scriptures in order to believe or to be spiritually sustained?

Barring a special dispensation, one cannot know what he believes IN without first knowing the word of God.

It seems to me, you place the Bible before prayers and seem to think that one cannot pray without knowing the Bible.

One cannot pray without first receiving God's grace. That grace will lead a believer to want to know God's word. God's word will teach the believer how to pray such that all of his prayers will be heard.

Our connection to God is through prayer FK. It can be even without words! If God is the Comforter, what words are "necessary" to feel His love?

I still do not understand why you are going to such lengths to try to show that God's word is unnecessary. God's word shows who God IS. Barring a special dispensation, one may as well pray to a head of lettuce as to "God" without God's word. That's where blind faith leads.

Sure, we are connected to God through prayer. But blind prayer to no one in particular is of no use when one intentionally turns his back on God's word.

6,627 posted on 07/23/2008 1:18:27 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: kosta50
"Christ being "quoted" while He is alone in the wilderness for 40 days. Was Matthew there? Was Luke there? No, neither was there. So neither is an eyewitness account. Rather it is a moral narrative written by a human being expressing a moral lesson to follow."

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Do you understand the meaning of a spiritual gift? I do not refer to an imaginary gift, but a very real gift in our anthropology, which is a different sense of perception other than rationalism or empiricism. Faith is a system of perception provided by God which allows us to perceive things spiritually.

Some have a gift in ministry, where they perceive an explicit right thing to say, at the right place, at the right time, to the right person per God's Plan. The information conveyed by God the Holy Spirit might be very personal. Absolutely nothing is hidden from God, and He might communicate to the human spirit of a believer to communicate to another believer or an unbeliever the right thing to say for that particular situation in glorification of the Son.

Scripture is Divinely inspired. That means a very real communication was made from God the Holy Spirit to a particular author who wrote the letter or book which has been translated for us to read today.

That spiritual gift used by God to communicate the Word during the scribing of the canon of Scripture is complemented by other spiritual gifts today from God the Holy Spirit to each and every believer, as well as during the sanctification process of the believer in learning Bible doctrine.

You are correct that it is possible to read the Bible and not grow in the human spirit. If one is out of fellowship and doesn't breath in the Word, the soul is not sanctified in that process. Worse, the Word of God is not without effect. Those who study while outside of fellowship risk hardening their heart to the Word and degenerating in their Christian life.

6,661 posted on 07/25/2008 6:22:10 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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